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Why We Need to Understand Trauma and Coercive Control with Dr. Debra Wingfield

Episode 147

Dr. Debra Wingfield Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Dr. Debra Wingfield is an Author, Speaker, and Trainer for family abuse prevention and intervention treatment.  She practiced counseling for 25 years with domestic abuse victims, offenders, adults, and children from all types of dysfunctional family systems. She’s also provided family court advocacy since 1993 and would love to be able to train those within the court system about trauma.

In this episode, Debra shares what the courts miss in cases of domestic abuse due to not being sufficiently trauma-informed, the societal impact that misconceptions about abuse can have, what it means for the rest of society if we don’t actually address these misconceptions and have the correct understanding about trauma, the difference between parenting with coercive control and parenting in a healthy way, and so much more.

Mentioned in this episode:

 

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

 

Transcript

All right, so today I have with me Debra Wingfield.  She is an author, speaker, and trainer for family abuse prevention and intervention treatment.  She practiced counseling for twenty-five years with domestic abuse victims, offenders, adults, and children from all types of dysfunctional family systems, and she’s provided family court advocacy since 1993.  She would love to be able to train those within the court system about trauma.

So, in our conversation, one of the things that we talk about is what the courts miss in cases of domestic abuse because they are not sufficiently trauma-informed.  She also talks about the societal impact that misconceptions about abuse can have; so what it means for the rest of society if we don’t actually address these and have the correct understanding about trauma.  And then we also talk about the difference between parenting with coercive control and parenting in a healthy way.

There’s a lot to be gained from this episode, and I really look forward to you hearing.  Enjoy!

Andrea:  All right!  Debra Wingfield, it is great to have you on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Thank you, Andrea.  I’m honored to be here.

Andrea:  Would you tell us a little bit about what you do and why you do it?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay.  Well, I have been working in the field of abuse and working with trauma survivors for over forty-five years now in my career.  And I’ve worked with children.  I’ve worked with adults.  I’ve worked with teenagers.  And in all of that work what I found is that the dynamics that are connected with domestic abuse and coercive control have lifelong impacts on the individuals involved in that.  So, I have, over the years, gone from actually being a therapist and doing the groundwork there to now being more of an educator.  I have an online training center where I actually train people to understand the dynamics of domestic abuse and coercive control as well as how to actually help people – whether it’s survivors or it’s the abusers, how to work with them and help them go through a change process that will help them heal.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Who tends to be the people that you help with that?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Right now, I’m partnered with a program called Called Peace Ministries.  I’m training advocates for their program to work within the church system as well as in the community to actually be there and available for survivors who are coming out of relationships where they’ve been abused or they’ve been coercively controlled.  And to help them get through the court system as well as they can based on a very broken court system that we’re working with right now, to protect their children, to keep their children as safe as they can.

And I know you have some questions about the court system.  So one of the other things that I do is I actually serve as an advocate for survivors that are going through the family court.  And as I’m doing my work with them, I’m also teaching others to do that same work because that’s a legacy that I want to be leaving behind is that we’re creating an army.  And that army is to go out there into the communities around the world and we are international at this point and educating so that people understand more about, not only the dynamics, but the impacts and how that impacts us in society and how it can have lifetime impacts on those who are abused.

Andrea:  Do you do some of this training with professionals within the court system somehow?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  That’s my dream.  I would like to be working with some of the professionals that work in the court system.  At this point and time, they consider their training that they get through their degree programs as sufficient for the work that they’re doing.  And we know that through the research, we’ve been able to show that their lack of training in their degree programs actually contributes to more harm to children on down the line.

Andrea:  There are a few different questions that come to mind.  Well, first of all, you’ve been in this, it sounds like you said for forty-five years; you’ve been working with children, adults, teens in various ways.  How have you sort of sustained that work, that mission and the energy that it takes to continue that mission?  I’m sure it has to be somewhat discouraging a lot of times.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  You’re right, Andrea.  There are times when it is discouraging.  However, when I see someone who is able to come through their healing and get on the other side and really make a solid life for themselves, that keeps me moving forward.  We had a tragedy the first of this year.  My granddaughter overdosed, and I had gotten into working in the family court system because she had lost her son to her abuser, and that’s what took her down that downward spiral into using drugs because she just never felt like she had an opportunity to be a part of her son’s life.  So, I have dedicated the remainder of my years that I can do this work to her and her legacy and for my great-grandchildren.  She left two children behind.

Andrea:   I’m really, really sorry to hear about your granddaughter, Debra.  Yeah, that is tragic, and I’m so sorry to hear about the disservice, the harm that the court system ended up causing for her life and the lives of the people in your family.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Well, thank you.  It’s not been easy.  We’re making adjustments as we go along.

Andrea:  Yeah.  So, when it comes to the court system then, what are some things that you feel like need to change?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  I really think the courts need to be trained in trauma-informed processes because they miss what’s going on with the survivor in courts.  Survivors tend to have a lot of anxiety in court and over an abundance of anxiety to what the courts are normally used to when someone comes in before a judge.  First of all, they know nothing about the court system.  They’ve never been, for the most part, involved in anything like this.  So, it’s very unfamiliar, and not only the courts but the attorneys really need to have a strong understanding of the kind of clients that they’re working with, who don’t know how to express what’s gone on in a marriage where they have been coercively controlled by their partner.

And as a result of that, very often what we see is judges will discount what mothers say.  They won’t believe them.  And mothers tell the truth 98% of the time in court, and judges tend to just gloss over that and buy into the charm of the abuser.  And the abuser convinces the judge that, “Oh, I was involved with the children’s lives and I did all these things with the children,” when in fact it’s the opposite.  The mother has been left to do all of that.  And then the father comes in and says, “Well, I should have at least 50% custody of my children or 50% parenting time.”  And we are changing; the language is changing across the country from custody to parenting time.

Custody actually implies a sense of ownership, and abusers capitalize on that.  That’s what they’re looking for is to own the victim, to own the children.  They’re property to them.  And when children are with their abusive parent, they may be being covertly abused, which means it’s just kind of under the surface or they don’t understand how they’re being manipulated.  But then they go back to their mother who is trying to continue to maintain the discipline, to maintain the family rules that have been set up for how their family works.  And the children balk at that because they’re basically with the other parent 50% of the time who’s playing the Disneyland parent.

So, let’s put in a couple of statistics here, so I don’t have to try to keep this gender-neutral because it’s not gender-neutral.  We know that one out of every four women has been abused by their partner at some point in their relationship and that abuse is very off and ongoing.  So, children are also experiencing that.  The research now that talks about how children experience the coercive control that’s being exerted on their mother actually has long term impacts on them as well.

Andrea:  Like what?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Like, we see health impacts in middle age.  And I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ACE study, the Adverse Childhood Experiences study.

Andrea:  No, I’m not.  Please, tell us.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay, the ACE Study was developed by Dr. Vincent Felitti in San Diego.  He was a physician in Kaiser Permanente out there, and he had set up a program for his patients who had problems with obesity.  And what he wanted to do was he wanted to make sure that they were losing weight, and keeping that weight off, and getting healthier because he comes from a prevention standpoint.  And over time, those patients who had enrolled in that program started dropping out or started regaining their weight, and he was concerned about what is causing this. And with that, he brought in their social scientists to interview the patients.  And what he found was there were ten factors that happened during their childhood, and of those ten factors, one was witnessing mother being treated violently.  Seven of those factors have to do with physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect.

Andrea:  That they personally experienced?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  That they personally experienced.  And we’re talking about a population of people that are middle-income people; they’re not low-income, they’re not higher income.  They tend to be more middle income.  And he repeated the study in other states and then around the world and kept getting the same results, that history of one to four or more of those ten factors actually resulted in midlife onset of chronic physical illnesses.  So, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, having had a teen pregnancy, substance abuse, and the list goes on.  And you can actually look at the ACE study on the Centers for Disease Control website.  And on that website, there are multiple research studies that have come about.

And it was such a phenomenal study and opened up the eyes of the Centers for Disease Control so much that they changed their whole focus on how they address child abuse.  So, instead of addressing child abuse as, “We’ve got to stop the abusers,” what they saw is you’ve got to start when children are in the womb, actually, and moving forward and create safe, stable, nurturing families.  And the effort of the CDC in their violence prevention unit now is completely the opposite of what it was prior to this study in 1998.

We’re still having people catch up with the fact that this study is out there.  We’re having people still needing to catch up with all the research that has come as a result of that study that helps us understand that we have to stop children from witnessing a parent being abused.  We have to stop children from being abused.  We have to teach empathy skills when children are young enough that it carries over into adulthood so that for them hurting someone else is no longer an option.  And whether that hurt is an emotional hurt or a physical hurt, we have to stop that.  And the way that we do that is we have to do education.  And part of what I do as an educator is I talk about the prevention side as much as I talk about what is the problem and how do you identify the problem.  So, I know that was a long answer.

Andrea:  That’s okay.  This is really interesting.  I’ll be back in just a second.

Okay, so we have to catch up with this.  So it makes sense.  We’ve got to catch up with the research that’s already been done on this.  So, there’s health impacts, long-term health impacts.  What other kinds of societal impacts are there that kind of stem from the fact that the court system isn’t taken care of, as it isn’t trauma-informed that children are seeing and experiencing abuse?  How does that really impact not just those people and the people around them but then also society at large?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  So, from the standpoint of society, what we’re looking at is some of these children who do not get the help that they need from the courts – the courts do not operate very quickly and very timely – and I have seen children who have basically thrown away their education.  They coast through school, and the schools get upset and schools suspend them, schools exclude them permanently from a school district and they have to be moved into another school district because they have never learned emotional control.  So, we actually have literature that talks about children who are emotionally dis-controlled or dysregulated, and what we need to do to help them with that.

And children who come out of situations where they’ve witnessed their mother being abused or coercively controlled, where they’ve also been abused themselves, they get into trying to address their own trauma and trying to heal from it, and instead they act it out.  So, they end up in our juvenile court system.  They end up never going to college, working at jobs way beneath their intellectual capabilities.  They become abusers.

And one of the things that we do know is that boys who are exposed to witnessing coercive control, witnessing domestic abuse, actually have a greater chance of becoming abusers in their own relationships and continuing this intergenerational cycle of abuse in their families.  What we see between the ages of six to ten is they’re learning from the abuser how to treat women and beyond that.  Then they turn that around and they start treating their mothers that way until we run into situations where the guardians ad litem in the court system say, “Well, maybe this child needs to just go live with dad.  Maybe that’s the problem.  The problem is that they just aren’t getting along with Mother.”

Andrea:  And Mom can’t control them at this point, probably.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Right.

Andrea:  Because they’re trying to control the mom.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Mhm.  And then they go and live with Dad.  Well, Dad just teaches them to be better at their abuse.  And then these children start blowing off their lives because Dad doesn’t hold them to the same level of accountability that Mother does for getting their schoolwork done, for staying involved in activities, for doing the things that build good, strong, healthy adults.  What they do is Dad says, “Oh, I got a buddy.  Let’s go play video games together.  Let’s go hang out together.  Let’s go do…” whatever Dad believes is going to keep that child locked into him and be the fun person, the fun parent, and then portray the mother as the rigid, structured parent when all she’s doing is carrying out what they had agreed to do during their marriage as far as how to raise their children.

And at that point in time, he’s undermining everything that Mother is doing to where, finally, Mother goes to the court and says, “I can’t keep this child in my home, and he’s gonna have to go live with his dad.”  And the court says, “Okay, we’re gonna let him live with his dad and he needs to go to counseling so that he can learn to be a better person because that is supporting whatever he’s doing.”  When they’re with Dad, Dad undermines the counseling or never gets them to counseling.

I have a case like that where the court has ordered the father to put the son in counseling.  He had a psychological evaluation that the dad put off and put off and put off for well over a year that the court had ordered.  And now he’s about to age out of the high school system and probably will drop out on his 17th birthday and never complete high school.  And his therapy that he’s been in has only been happening for maybe three to four months now.  Dad is facing contempt of court with the judge to the point where he’s facing jail time and fines.  And the dad says, “I don’t think it’s gonna happen.  I don’t think the judge will do this to me.”

And so, what is the message to this child?  What is the message to multiple children in these situations when Dad doesn’t hold them accountable because Dad wants a buddy?  Dad is going to do whatever he can to take the children away from Mother because he’s mad because she had the audacity to leave him and to stop being abused.  That’s the bottom line.

Andrea:  Debra, what can we do or what do you feel like it would take to really…  If we were to move forward in an idealistic way, what would it take to disrupt the way that things are in the court system so that we actually see the impacts lessen – the impacts of trauma lessen – and people in more healthy environments?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  It’s going to take a huge revamp of the court system.  And I know that the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges is slowly chipping away at this.  It’s going to take a much more massive movement to have something happen dramatically.  I know of a judge in California who actually was following the dictates of what the judges taught her to do in these cases and sent the child to live with the abuser.  And when the child was murdered by the abusive father, she felt so harmed as a judge by what she had been taught that she actually resigned her judgeship because she could no longer carry out what her fellow judges were teaching her and saying she had to do.

So, there’s movements across the country to make these kinds of changes in the court system.  The Center for Judicial Excellence out in California, Kathleen Russell has led them a very strong movement in California where they’ve done audits on the courts out there to show where the courts have not done a good job.  But we need millions of dollars to do audits across the country on the court system.  Joan Meier with DV LEAP out of Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., has just completed a study of cases that were available where Mother claimed domestic violence or child abuse and Father gained at least 50% custody or more.

So, you know, we have little pockets.  This issue gets pushed underneath the surface because many people think domestic violence is physical abuse, is a physical injury – and that’s incorrect.  Domestic abuse is coercive control.  And if you look at the Power and Control Wheel that was developed by the Duluth Project out of Duluth, Minnesota, what you will find is there’s a wheel – it’s called the Power and Control Wheel – and there are eight spokes inside that wheel.  And every one of those spokes inside that wheel are coercive control – whether it’s financial abuse, using the children, using male privilege, threats, intimidation, emotional abuse – and on the outside of that wheel is physical and sexual violence.

So, what everyone goes through is, “Oh, well, there was no physical abuse.  You didn’t file a police report.  There’s no medical reports.”  And, so, therefore, the judge determines that there’s no domestic violence and does not use that part of the statute to make their ruling about parenting time.  When in actuality, what the judges need to be looking at is all of those spokes inside that wheel and addressing how all of those spokes inside that wheel were used as a way to coercively control.  I’m going to use the women because we know more women are abused in relationships than men.  The women are cut off from expressing that.

So, one of the things that I teach is stay away from saying the word “abuse” in court.  Instead, describe the behaviors of the abuser.  Describe how you were pulled out of your educational program when you became involved with a relationship with this abuser and that he convinced you that you wouldn’t need that because he was going to take care of you.  Describe how you were the parent who had to stay home with the children and homeschool the children instead of pursuing your career because someone had to do it.  And so he said you were to do that, so he isolated you from your home, sometimes even isolating from the homeschool community.

And as we go around that wheel, we can find examples of that happening on a very frequent basis in that relationship.  And then because I’m working with Called to Peace Ministries now, I’m getting more and more people coming to me who have been spiritually abused by the way that the abuser uses the church against her.  And I’m not going to do the quotes here.  I’ll just stay away from that because I come from a secular perspective.  But we do know that the churches are creating great harm to women in these relationships by saying, “Oh, you have to reconcile.”  “You have to forgive.”  “You can’t divorce.”  And that in itself is coercive control.  So, how do we change all of this?  We have to change our whole mentality around domestic abuse and coercive control.

They’ve done it in the United Kingdom and are working on it, I know, in Australia.  But in the United Kingdom in December of 2015, a law went into effect that actually criminalized coercive control.  So, all these dynamics inside that Power and Control Wheel have been criminalized.  And they have made arrests.  Yeah, they have made arrests and convicted people, and there’s a five-year prison sentence that goes with that.  So, we have to look at coercive control as a captivity crime in this country.

Andrea:  That’s a huge shift.  That is a huge shift.  That would be disrupting to not just the court system and churches but even schools.  I mean, I looked it up while you were talking about it because I’ve not seen this before, but using coercion and threats to get somebody to comply…  I mean, that can happen in a school pretty easily.  It’s using intimidation, you know, things like that.  It makes a lot of sense that we would be careful around these things and not use them and that we would criminalize them.  It is such a huge, huge shift.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  It is, and that’s why it takes so long to create that kind of shift.  Evan Stark put this together so well in his book on coercive control.  And he explains exactly what it is – it’s a condition of unfreedom.  The abuser has taken away the freedom of choice, the freedom of being their own person from the victim.  So, in our program, we teach empowerment.  We teach our advocates how to use empowerment with trauma-informed processes with the survivors and that’s so important because survivors need to finally take back their personhood, to take back their identity that has been stolen from them by the abuser.

Andrea:  How do you help people to see the difference between empowerment and helping people to take back their identity, that sort of thing… or maybe not even a difference.  I’m going back to the idea of schooling or parenting, when of course there is a certain amount of needing to kind of guide a child to make the right decisions and things like this.  So, what’s a healthy expression of parenting and schooling and that sort of thing versus the unhealthy way of approaching it with coercive control?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay, so a healthy way of parenting – and this is how I parented my daughter – is using logical and natural consequences.  This comes out of some of the early research in parenting, and one of the things that is the hallmark of that is giving children autonomy to make choices.  So, I’ll give you an example, and this is a true story with my daughter.  I had called her in, she was out riding her bike, and I called her in to set the table for dinner.  And she comes to the door and she, you know, in that whiny voice that kids use, “Oh, Mom, I just want to be outside riding my bike with my friends.”  And I said, “Well, you can do that.  However, if you choose to do that before you set the table, then the bike is mine for a week.  Now what do you want to do?”  And she said, “I’ll set the table.”

Now, I have been doing that with her from the time that she was very young.  She was about three or four years old, and I stumbled across this whole piece about logical and natural consequences.  And as a result of that, she learned that she had to make good choices.  That’s an empowerment piece.  When we work with survivors, we help them look at different options so they make the choice.  We don’t tell them what to do.  That’s what abusers do.  We say, you know, “You can look at it from this standpoint or this standpoint or even a third standpoint, if it’s there.  What do you want to do?”  And that helps them make their own choices.

The other thing is that we believe the survivor.  We don’t question her story about what happened to her.  That’s her experience, and we want to be there for her.  So, if it’s okay with you, I want to give a little plug here for our training program.

Andrea:  Oh, yeah, absolutely.  So, tell us about where people can find information about you and your trainings.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay.  I have a website.  It’s called houseofpeacepubs.com, and there are links there to the advocacy training program where someone can find out information about the program.  We start a class about once a month.  We do a class over four weeks.  So, it kind of comes out over every month.  Sometimes, it rolls over into the next month.  But we end about mid-December with our twelve courses so that everyone has the holiday season off, and then we start usually the first full week in January again.

Andrea:  And this is a series of twelve courses, is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Yes, there’s twelve courses.  People can join the course at any time and go through the sequence of twelve courses.  So, we are in our second year now.  And we are close to having 200 people who have taken one or more of our courses.

Andrea:  That’s great!

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  So, another thing to look at on my website if people want to know more about coercive control and the impacts of coercive control and how to work with that in the family court system, I have a book that I’ve written that can be found on the products link on that website.  It’s called Eyes Wide Open: Help! with Control Freak Co-Parents.  And it explains all the different types of coercive control that I’ve identified through the research, through talking with survivors and through working with survivors.  So, you know, people are welcome to go and check that out and see if they have questions.  They can contact me through info@houseofpeacepubs.com if they have any questions, they want to know more.

Andrea:  That sounds great.  Debra, we’ll make sure to include links to everything you mentioned in our show notes on our website, too, so that would make it easy for people to come and find at voiceofinfluence.net.

Debra, thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us here and your passion to see things change.  I hope that in the midst of all the unrest that we’re all experiencing kind of right now that perhaps some good will come of this for race relations but also for just this issue of coercive control in general, and specifically also for people who are experiencing it in the court systems and in their families.  So, thank you for all the work that you’re doing and for being a Voice of Influence our audience today.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Oh, you’re welcome, Andrea, and thank you for having me on your show!

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Finding Her True Voice After Domestic Violence with Naghmeh Panahi

Episode 146

Naghmeh Panahi Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Naghmeh Panahi is a speaker, a Bible teacher, and an executive director for the TAF Foundation; an organization that helps abused women escape and recover religiously motivated violence, both in the form of domestic violence and in the form of religious persecution.

Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then-husband and pastor at the time, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. Unfortunately, her story is not an easy one to hear because it turns out that she was in an abusive marriage, and eventually they got divorced.

In this episode, Naghmeh shares her story, the complexities that go with what it’s like to be in a situation of oppression, the complex reasons why it’s so hard to get out, the importance of siding with the oppressed instead of staying silent, and her advice on being a voice of influence in a diverse setting.

Mentioned in this episode:

 

 

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

 

Transcript

Well, I am really honored to share with you the story of Naghmeh Panahi.  She is a speaker, a Bible teacher, and executive director for the TAF Foundation – she’s going to pronounce it for you in a little bit.  It is an organization which helps abused women escape and recover religiously motivated violence, both in the form of domestic violence and in the form of religious persecution.

Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then husband and pastor at the time, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith.  She’s going to tell us all about the story.

But, unfortunately, it’s not a story that is easy to hear because it turns out that she was in an abusive marriage, and eventually they got divorced.  I’m really looking forward to hearing her story and understanding the complexities that go with what it’s like to be in a situation of oppression and the complex reasons why it’s so hard to get out.  So, she’s going to share with us her story.  She’s going to talk about the importance of siding with the oppressed instead of staying silent and then her advice on being a voice of influence in a diverse setting.

I think that you are going to really appreciate this conversation with Naghmeh Panahi.

Andrea:  All right, Naghmeh, it is such an honor to have you here with us on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Naghmeh Panahi:  Well, thanks for having me.  I appreciate it.

Andrea:  So, you stepped into the international spotlight when your husband was imprisoned in Iran.  Would you mind sharing with our listeners how that unfolded and kind of how it led to what you’re doing today?

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yeah.  My husband had traveled to Iran, and I got a call that he had been arrested because of his faith and my whole world crumbled.  My husband was literally my world.  I’d come from a very hard marriage, but I guess my marriage had become my everything where my husband actually controlled everything from the way I thought, the way I dressed, who I saw, who I didn’t see.  He became the center of my world.  And so at that time, it just felt like I couldn’t even function without him.

And, so, I did everything I could do to get him out and started with being on the news a few times a week – Fox News, CNN – and then people start seeing me on TV, and Congress started contacting me.  I spoke in front of our Congress three times.  I traveled the world.  I spoke at the United Nation.  I spoke at human rights groups.  President Obama actually flew to Boise, Idaho where I lived, and I met with him.  I met the heads of states.  I mean, just three and a half years I did everything to get him out of prison.  And, you know, I had two small kids at that time.  They were toddlers – they were four and five – and I really believed they needed their father and tried to do everything to get him out of prison.

And interesting enough, his imprisonment is what set me free from my abusive marriage, and that’s a story in itself.  But it was through him being separated from me for so long that I started gaining confidence.  Because before he went to prison, I really believed that I was worthless, that I couldn’t think properly, and that I was crazy, “the crazy-making” as he would call it in domestic abuse.  I believed all of that, which is interesting because, when I met him, I was a very independent businesswoman.  I had no self-image issues.  The marriage had really brought me down to a place of complete destruction where I had no self-worth.  I believed all the lies.

And, so, when he went to prison, it gave me space and time and a lot of prayers and reflections, self-reflection, and I know as a Christian, my time with God that really set me free to say, “Wait a minute, that’s not what God says I am.  That’s not who God says I am.”  And it really set me free and it was an interesting journey.

Towards the end of his imprisonment, my husband got a phone – a Smartphone – inside of the Iranian prison.  Before he went to prison, there was beating; me getting beat up, my dad, my dog destruction of property, possible infidelity, even though I didn’t want to face it.  Very clear… I closed my eyes to a lot of things.  I didn’t want to believe that.

But I believed that if I fought and I proved to my husband that I loved him so much, he would love me back.  And towards the end of his imprisonment, he got a phone and I noticed he had not only changed, he was different.  He was even an angrier person.  He definitely had PTSD.  He had paranoia.  But he was angry that I was traveling the world and he was calling me the same names, “Worthless,” – I’m sorry to say, but – “ whore, Jezebel, don’t think you’re valued. Don’t think just because you’re traveling the world and people are clapping, they’re clapping for you.”  He would say, “They’re clapping for me.  I’m the hero.  I’m the one in prison.”

And, so, I was shocked because I had literally laid down my life to get him out of prison, including putting my kids’ wellbeing after him.  I was a single mom of two kids.  I got death threats because I traveled, because I spoke out against Iranian government and their abuse of human rights issues, and I continued to do that to get him out.  I had serious anxiety getting on airplanes.  I grew up in Iran where there was war, and airplanes meant bombs and war.  And, so, I had always struggled getting on an airplane, but I would get on airplanes every single time with anxiety and I would say, “I’m doing it for my husband.”

So, I knew I was laying down my life and loving him to the best of my ability, and to have him still call me those names from prison just was a wake-up call that this marriage is not going to get any better, no matter how much I try.  It’s just not, and that’s when, really, I was set free.  I didn’t know it was abuse.  I couldn’t put my finger on it.  I knew I had a hard marriage, but I couldn’t figure out…  I felt dark.  It felt foggy, but I couldn’t figure it out until on a last trip, I was speaking at a church and I finally, for the first time, shared everything with this pastor and his wife.

Now, as someone who comes out of domestic abuse, you’re groomed to hide your spouse’s flaws.  You wouldn’t dare tell anyone about your issues or that he had any flaws.  So, I had learned to do that to kind of cover-up for him.  For the first time, I shared it with someone and this pastor looked at me, and he said, “Do you know I’m a doctor?”  And I said, “No.”  He said, “Yeah, I got my doctorate in psychology.”  And he looked at me and he said, “You’re an abused wife.  And it’s like getting a cancer.  You know there’s something wrong with your body and you don’t know what it is, and a doctor says, ‘Oh, it’s cancer and it’s deadly.’”

And for the first time it had a name and it made sense, because then I googled about abuse and all the signs of how a person tries to control another person, he pretty much met every single checklist.  And I was shocked because I thought I was the only one experiencing the isolation the being put down, the… just everything, the deflection and the gaslighting, all of that.  And I thought I was the only one experiencing it.  And then when there was a name put to what I was going through, it just all came together and I realized, “This is not an incident after incident.  This is actually a diagnosis of bigger issue called abuse, called cancer, and this is deadly if I don’t do something about it.”

I was already a dead person before he went to prison.  I was a robot.  I did everything he said.  I couldn’t show any emotion.  If I cried, he would say, “You’re trying to manipulate me.”  If I showed anger, he would say, “You’re the abusive person.”  So, I had learned to become a robot with no emotion and just do everything he told me.  I was a slave, a servant.  And, so, when it got a name, when the name abuse came, I was like… It just all made sense.  And I knew that I couldn’t just close my eyes to it anymore.  And that it was not only deadly for me, it was deadly for my kids.  I would not want my son to know that this is okay to treat a woman like this, to treat another human being like this.  And I didn’t want my daughter to know that it was ever okay to be treated that way.

Andrea:  Hmm, so, at what point… I mean, this is so poignant, and I think a lot of people are going to be able to relate to this, and the feeling of, “Oh gosh, I didn’t even realize this is what it was.”  But what point did that really hit you, in what point in your story and in the arc of your husband coming back and all of that?

Naghmeh Panahi:   Well, actually, before he came back, I drew my first boundary.  And even before the pastor told me it was abuse, I was traveling the world three or four times a month, trying to get him out, and he would call me all sorts of names.  He was controlling everything from where I went, what I said, and money that was coming in.  He was controlling everything from prison towards the end.  It was pretty amazing that he had a Smartphone in an Iranian prison.  Like, he could actually FaceTime me.  It was shocking to me, but I think that was a good thing for me.  At first I was like, “If he didn’t have access to me, I would fight hard for him.”  But every time he would poison me, I had to be like, “I’m gonna be a bigger person.  I’m gonna still fight for him even though he’s, like, kicking me from prison, verbal abuse and emotional abuse and control.”

But I’m glad I got to see who he was from prison because it was my wake-up call to say, “Oh my goodness, he’s not getting any better.”  So, before he came out, I actually drew boundaries.  I said, “If you can’t be nice to me then I can’t talk to you.  Because I want to be able to fight to get you out of prison, and every time you spew out these hateful things to me, I get bitter.  And I have to work through that bitterness and I have to work through forgiving you, and then I have to put on a front and try to do an interview to try to get you out.”  I said, “I can’t talk to you if you can’t be nice to me.”  And he never called again, never.  All it would have taken was him to call back and say, “I’m sorry, I want to be nice to you,” and he didn’t.

So, he didn’t actually call me at all, even when he got released from prison.  State Department contacted me, and I’d heard on the news he was released January 16th, 2016.  And State Department told me… I called them and I said, “I heard he’s released from media.”  It was all over media, BBC, CNN, Fox, everything.  And they said, “Yeah, but they’re still in the country,” these Americans that were taken hostage, including my husband, “So, we don’t want to really say anything until they’re out because last minute the Iranian government could pull back and not let them leave.”

Long story short, they got out, took about a day and they flew into Germany where he was evaluated, you know, mentally and physically, which I never found out what that evaluation was because he wouldn’t allow me to have access.  He didn’t call me then.  And here I was seeing all over the news, he was talking to all these big names like Franklin Graham, and everyone was sharing how they talk to Saeed, to my husband, and he hadn’t called me.  And because that had been my boundary was like, “If you can’t be nice to me, don’t call me,” and he didn’t.

So, I told him that in October of 2015.  November is when I went to that church and the pastor told me I was an abused wife.  And in my, I guess, mental breakdown, I wrote an email in November of 2015 saying, “I’m an abused wife.  I’ve had access to Saeed in prison.  He’s still abusing me.”  And then this went viral, and then there was news that covered it… Washington Post covered, Fox…  I mean, there was a lot of media covered it.  And so he heard about it, of course, he had access to the Smartphone.  So, he was mad at me, and that was another reason, you know, when he got out, he didn’t call me.

Finally, his sister messaged me and said, “This is his phone number in Germany.  He doesn’t want to talk to you.  He just wants to talk to the kids.”  I was like, “Okay.”  So, I called him, he was very angry at me.  And it was an interesting phone call, to say the least, but that was our first phone conversation.  And you know what, the first thing I was accused of when I drew boundaries with my husband was that I was cheating on him.  I was throwing him under the bus, because I was with another man, which was ridiculous, because to this day my husband was the first man I ever kissed, I ever held hands with.  And we’ve been divorced for three years now, I still haven’t dated.  So, to be accused of that was just really painful.

And, so, he asked me, he said, “Have you cheated on me?”  And I said, “No.”  And I asked him, because now things have come to light that I was sure he had cheated on me in our marriage, and he said, “Well, I’m not gonna answer that because you’re gonna use it against me.”  And long story short, he got out.  He still ignored me.  He ignored me for months.  It took a court order in order to have him communicate with me because when he got out, I was so scared.  He had serious paranoia, serious PTSD.

He was an abusive person who had already almost beat me to death early on in our marriage and I was scared of him, of what he was going to do.  And he had threatened me when I called them in Germany that he was going to come and take the kids from me.  I called a lawyer and they said, “Oh, yeah, they can do that.  He’s still their father.  Unless you have a protective order and legal separation…”  I didn’t want a divorce.  I was hoping that our marriage was going to heal.  But the lawyer said, “Unless you do this, he can come and take the kids.”  And, so, I did that.

About a week, I was told I should go to a marriage counseling – which again, for abuse, you do not encourage women who come out of abuse to go to marriage counseling because their abuser is so manipulative, so deceptive.  It’s dangerous for them to be in the same room with them and going through marriage counseling, but I was kind of being forced to do that.  It was all over the media that I was going to go to the Billy Graham Center and do marriage counseling and make it up with Saeed, and I just didn’t.  I ended up talking to abuse counselors, and it was not a good idea.  So, I didn’t go.  I ended up staying in Boise.

One morning, I got a call from Reuters, saying, “Oh, how do you feel?  Your husband’s flying to Boise.”  And I was like, “What?”  So, it was about a week after his release, it was late January.  He’d been released January 16th.  He’d kind of stayed in Germany a few days, and then he’d gone to the North Carolina at the Billy Graham Center for about a few days, about three or four days.  And then he surprise-flew into Boise, with Franklin Graham’s private jet.  And I was like, beside myself, I was so scared.  I didn’t know when he was going to land.  I didn’t know what was going to happen.

And I called my lawyer, she said, “He can come now.  He’s on a private jet.  He could just put the kids on the private jet and leave, and you would have to fly to wherever he’s at and then try to figure out how you’re gonna get your kids back.”  So, that day, I filed for a protective order for me, not the kids – but supervised visits for the kids – and legal separation, hoping that it was going to prevent him from taking the kids and that I was going to be safe until we could talk through it for our marriage and make it work.  And that was the best thing I did because that’s exactly what he had planned.

But unfortunately, the media just went with it, and they made it sound like this poor persecuted Christian comes home and his wife files for divorce, which I didn’t.  I filed for a legal separation.  And no one really understood what I was going through.  This man was after me.  He had suffered a great deal in prison as well.  He had severe PTSD.  He saw me as his enemy, and I became the bad guy who had to file for legal separation and protection order for a hero that was coming back home.

It was heartbreaking because people were making judgments without knowing what had happened throughout our marriage.  So that’s how it unfolded.  Basically, I asked that he would get help on the abuse.  And the moment he realized that I wasn’t going to submit to any of that behavior anymore, he filed for divorce and he divorced me April of 2017, which was heartbreaking.  I had people around me say, “Well, you’re free!  You’re free!”  You know, because of my religious views, I thought God hated divorce so bad that I was willing to stay in that marriage and be separated for as long as possible – even if I grew old – until he repented, until he changed his behavior.

But he divorced me, and at that time I saw it like, it was very painful because I felt like, “I fought for you for three and a half years, day and night to get you out of prison, and you come out and you divorce me when all I’m asking you is let’s talk and you can’t beat me anymore and you can’t cheat on me anymore.  And you’re not even willing to go see abuse counselors, try to work on our marriage a little bit after your wife literally laid down her life.”  It was painful that he didn’t even want to fight for our marriage.  He’d lost his slave.  He’d lost someone who had been completely obedient to him, and he could walk all over me.  He could cheat on me.  I wouldn’t believe anyone but him.  If he said, “I didn’t cheat on you,” I’d say, “Oh, I believe you.”

He had complete control over me, and he had lost that and he was done with me.  It was painful to feel that.  There was no love.  He didn’t even want to fight for our marriage.  You know, that was a shattered dream.  I turned 40 and then a month and a half later, my divorce became final and I’m like, “Here I am at 40, two kids, broken home.” I was devastated.  I was still trying to get my mind around what was happening with the abuse, and then all the travels I’d done.  It just felt like I was sitting down in the middle of this destroyed building with rubble around me, and I didn’t know how I was going to get back up.  But I did.

And today, I am a much stronger, happier person than I was even in my twenties, you know.  Sometimes you think back, “What if I could go back in my twenties and I made a different choice and I had a better marriage?”  And I look back, I’m like, “No, I love this journey I was on because it helps me understand what abused women or actually, anyone who’s gone through abuse or oppression goes through, and it has given me a heart for those who are abused.”  The people who are supposed to serve them are abusing their power and oppressing them.  And it has given me a heart of compassion instead of heart of judgment, and it has made me a better person.

I would say, it’s transformed me from a caterpillar to a butterfly, and I couldn’t be happier.  So, I wouldn’t go back and I’m actually at a much better place, but I couldn’t see that three years ago.  I couldn’t see how I was going to get out of this rubble.  It just seemed like destruction, and there was no light at the end of the tunnel.  That’s how I felt three years ago.

Andrea:  Hmm, devastating.  It’s so devastating, and to think that he would betray you like that.  And not only him, but then everybody who had been applauding you and cheering for you.  And as you are going on this campaign to get him released from prison, I can’t imagine the devastation you must have felt to realize that people weren’t believing you.

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yeah, and you know, women who’ve gone through sexual assault or abuse or anyone that kind of we saw with #MeToo movement, usually when you’re at the forefront of that and you’re calling out someone with a big name or someone who’s in the place of power, people question you, question your character, and don’t believe you.  And so at first, it was hard that people did that.  But then I was like, “You know what, I’m so glad because that’s how every woman who has come out feels.”  And I’m glad I felt that.  Now, I know how painful it is for people to judge you and to question you and say you’re a liar and question your character.  And also, it actually helped me get free of people-pleasing.  I needed to have the whole world turn against me to go, “Okay, it does it matter?  Does it really matter that much, or does it matter that I do the right thing?”

It was really hard because I am a people-pleaser.  And I think, you know, a lot of women who are people-pleasers stay in these abusive marriages because you want to please.  And so God just got rid of all that for me and said, “What matters to you?  Do you care what people say or you’re going to live your life the way that’s truth, that’s right even if the whole world thinks you’re a bad person?  Does that matter?”  And I had to come to the decision of, “Nope, you know, it doesn’t matter.”  And, you know, I would have probably cried and told you that three years ago we’ve talked.  It was hard.  People abandoned me.  People judged me.  Not only did they abandon me, they kicked me.

It’s like the Good Samaritan story where there was a bleeding person.  People passed by; not only did they pass by, they kicked me and threw all sorts of stones and hurled all sorts of accusations against me.  But again, I’m thankful because now I understand how other people feel when they come out, and people just throw stones at them instead of being compassionate and loving.  And also, it really helped me get over the people-pleasing that was destructive in my life.

Andrea:  And really, that people-pleasing, you know, to lay that down, to have that leave or for you to leave it seems to have really empowered your voice for you to be able to speak up now and do what you’re doing with the TAF Foundation.  Can you tell us some about that?

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yeah, it did.  It’s interesting because I was silenced in my marriage.  And to have been given a microphone because he was in prison, and then for God to really give me a microphone for women who are oppressed and abused has been pretty amazing.  So, I do want to say, just to clarify, I had to learn – it was through my relationship with God – that God hates what’s happening to the person in abuse more than he hates the divorce.  So, when I realized that God hated what was happening to me, He was not happy about me submitting to abuse and oppression and all of that, it really changed my view of God.  And it was so eye-opening that a high view of marriage includes divorce.  It’s okay.  God is actually more concerned about the person.

You know, as a Christian, I believe Jesus came to save us, but He didn’t come to save the marriage, He came to save a person.  One person matters to Him.  So, the wellbeing, the mental health, physical health, wellbeing of a woman or whoever is being abused, oppressed, is more important to Him than the institution of marriage.  And it was so eye-opening for me to learn that.  But when I came out of it, women started contacting me about what they were going through.

And my co-founder, Mariam Ibraheem, contacted me – and I’ve shared her story – and she had come out of prison in Sudan.  She was on death row because of her faith, and she had come out to only end up in a very dark, abusive marriage.  Well, I had met her in 2014.  She had just come out of prison in 2014.  I was traveling to get my husband out, and then in 2018, she contacted me.  So, we’ve been talking back and forth over the years for four years.  Well, 2018 she contacted me and she said, “I need help.”  She said, “What I’m going through in my marriage right now is worse than being on death row and tortured by radicals in the Sudanese prison,” where she actually gave birth to her daughter under very hard conditions in Sudan.

She said, “The domestic abuse I’m going through right now is worse, because it’s from within.  The attack is from within, and it’s so hard to see.”  And, so, I ended up helping bring her out of that, and then our foundation was formed.  We didn’t want to share our story.  I mean, people knew about mine, but Mariam didn’t really come out about her domestic stuff until recently.  So that’s how me and Mariam got together, and then we have another colleague that kind of joined us.  But around the time I was talking to my colleagues, you know, we hadn’t formed TAF yet, which stands for Tahrir Alnisa Foundation; which tahrir means freedom, liberation, and then alnisa in Arabic means woman – so liberating woman.

And before we started it, I had a group of women contact me from Iran.  One of them had been thrown in prison, few had fled to the country of Turkey because of their Christian faith, and so, I really wanted to help them.  And I reached out to my friend, Mariam and I said, “What can we do?”  And she said, “Well, come to DC and let’s see if we can get some politicians involved, see what we can do for them.”  I went to DC and pretty much everyone told us, “Why don’t you guys start an organization?  You can have a more powerful voice having an organization.”

Reluctantly, we started it, and it’s been about almost a year now.  And, you know, the focus is woman – alnisa means woman – but to help woman who have dealt with abuse of power, whether it’s in a home or in a government that has abused its power.  So, we address any abuse of power that a woman has gone through, whether it’s religious freedom or domestic abuse.  Actually, a lot of these women who come out of religious persecution have also gone through domestic abuse.  Unfortunately, a lot of these women that we work with in the Middle East, they have similar stories as me.

So, we help many, many women who are broken, who’ve come out of, you know, again, places of abuse of power, whether in a home or country.  And we help them get back on their feet, find their true identity, their true value and become productive and help others to come to a place of healing.  So, we have counselors.  We work with different counselors, and we help them figure out how to get back on their feet with their kids and really be productive members of society.

Andrea:  Hmm, that’s fantastic.  So, can I ask you, would you mind sharing what are some of the systemic issues, the big issues that kind of keep a woman in an abusive situation within a religious culture?  You mentioned one, which is this idea that divorce is the worst thing.  If people believe that, then they’re going to stay in it.  But other than that, what other kinds of things are involved in religious culture that keeps people in those abusive situations?

Naghmeh Panahi:  I think, at large when there’s oppression and abuse, there’s something called reactive abuse where the person reacts and misbehaves also, and so that brings a lot of confusion.  I have a lot of churches… and I think in society, they’re like, “Well, this person behaved badly, too.”  You know, where they’re confused, they’re like, “We don’t know who to believe.”  So, they don’t know who to believe.  “Well, the wife was yelling too, and who’s the abuser here?”  And, you know, we see in society, there’s oppression and then people behave in a bad way.  So, they’re like, “Both parties are at fault.”  No, there’s usually an oppressor and an oppressed.

Now, I did a video recently with Leslie Berg Vernick, who talks about abuse.  And there’s something called reactive abuse where the person is being abused.  That means there’s one person in place of power trying to control…  Abuse is not just about physical abuse; it’s an imbalance of power.  One person trying to control another person or, you know, there’s oppression and the person that’s being abused, oppressed, acts out.  And, so, there’s confusion.  Who do we believe?  Who’s the abuser?  So, because of lack of education of how abusers work and because they’re seeing both parties get angry, both parties throw things, people take their hands off.  They’re like, “We don’t know whose fault, that person…” you know.

So, education of what does abuse really look like, what does it mean, and how do abusive people operate because they operate in such a way that you get confused, that you don’t even step in to defend the oppressed.  But when you don’t step in, silence is actually you siding with the oppressor, you siding with the abuser.  So, it’s kept a lot of churches silent because they’re like, “Well, God hates divorce.”  So, as soon as a woman divorces, they walk away from that person.  They don’t say, “Okay, why did you divorce?”  “Okay, we can give you grace for that,” and try to understand what she’s going through.  But also they don’t know who to believe because I don’t think we – as a society – we’ve really fully understood what an abusive person is and how they operate, whether at a larger in society or smaller in a home.  So, we get confused because we see bad behavior on both sides.

So, education is key and then accountability because there’s always going to be abusers in society, whether in a home or outside of a home.  So, you can’t really stop that.  You can’t really stop… not have abusive people around.  They’re always going to be there.  But in a society or at home, where there’s accountability, where they’re like, “This is not allowed and there will be consequences,” then that’s when you can actually protect the oppressed.  So, there has to be consequences where the police, our court systems understand abuse. They protect the woman and children.  And because a lot of times abusers, really, they go to the churches and they say, “Well, my wife’s being abusive.”  A lot of times they call the abused the abuser so that causes confusion, and then they call them crazy.  Like, “My wife is crazy,” and people believe that.

So, I think a lot of why there’s inaction is because there’s confusion of, “Which side do I choose.?”  You always choose the side of the oppressed.  That’s the heart of God.  You choose the side of the one who’s being oppressed, you know, and you call their oppressor to accountability and repentance.  That’s the most loving thing you can do to them.  You are accountable for your action.  And that was my goal when I did that for my husband that when I drew boundaries and I called him to accountability, I was out of love.  I still loved my husband.  I still wanted healing.  But that was the most loving thing I could do.  I stopped being an enabler, and we need to first have clarity of who’s the oppressed, who’s the oppressor and what’s the right thing to do.

There’s no “two sides to every story” in a marriage where there’s abuse.  There’s no “two sides of the story” when someone’s being oppressed in the society.  There’s the oppressed that needs to be defended.  That’s what Jesus did.  The woman that was being accused of adultery, He didn’t say, “Oh, well, she did… yeah, she’s sinned too.”  He protected the oppressed and then after everyone left, after everything was quiet, after she was protected, He said, “Go and sin no more.”  So, you protect the one that’s being oppressed first.  You don’t go, “Well, you’re a sinner too, so I don’t know who I’m gonna side with.”  You protect the woman and children.  You know, at times there’s men who are oppressed.  You protect them and then you say, “Well, this area, don’t do this anymore.”

For me, the reason I stayed for so long and the area that I had to change and repent of was idolatry.  I put something above God, and I was bowing down to it in fear and in my marriage, and I had to say, “You know what, I’m not gonna bow down to people-pleasing anymore.  I’m not gonna bow down to this anymore.  I need to change in that area.”  But I had to be protected first.  So, anyways, I think it’s really education of what does oppression mean, what does it look like, what does abuse look like, how does an oppressor or an abuser behave.

There are so much similarities of how they behave, and a lot of what they try to do is bring confusion, gaslighting, and deflection.  Because they want confusion so people take their hands off and go, “Well, I don’t know who to trust.  I don’t know who to protect.”  That’s exactly what they want because when you take your hands off and you’re not protecting the oppressed, then they get their way.  So, confusion is the biggest thing of why churches don’t get involved with domestic abuse.  And one of the things we do is try to educate them that, “Here’s how you can see clearly and you are called to act.”

You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, “Silence in the face of evil is evil itself.”  Like, just because you’re silent, it doesn’t mean you’re blank.  You’re actually siding with the evil when you’re silent, when you’re not acting and so that’s a big issue.  And why people are silenced is because they’re confused.  They don’t know who to believe and once that confusion’s removed and they see that actually they have to act, not acting is siding with the oppressed, is siding with the evil then they get educated on that.  Then they can act in a positive way of helping a system… create a system within a marriage, within a church, within the court systems where woman and children go for, you know, legal actions or divorce or whatever, where they can educate those systems and say, “Here’s how you see and this is how you keep the abuser accountable and protect the people that are being abused.”

Andrea:  So, this is all so powerful and good, and you’re articulating it so well for us.  Your ex-husband came back, and he was paraded around as a kind of a champion for the faith.  I know that when somebody is kind of in that hero positioning, or they’re in a position where they’ve done so much good for your cause and yet they’re accused of abuse or you find out that… the people push back on that because he’s a hero, right?  He’s a hero.  What do you want to say to people who say, “But he did so much good?”

Naghmeh Panahi:  You know, that’s the trap.  I think over the years in history of humanity, we’ve submitted to dictators and abusive leaders and people because they’ve done so much.  You know, you look at Hitler who’s doing so much for Germany and it’s the same way, you know.  As a Christian, what really woke me up was God didn’t care.  He doesn’t care about people doing so much.  God cares about the character, you know.  We read in the Bible that says in the last days many will say to Jesus, “But I prophesied in your name.  I did miracles in your name.  I did this.”  And Jesus says, “Get away from me.  I never knew you.”

And we get deceived by big actions and big things that are being done, and that was my trap.  That’s how I was trapped in this marriage.  My husband was very charismatic.  And he was doing great stuff for God, but he lacked the character.  And I turned off all the alarms that was saying, “Wait a minute, that’s not a good character.  That’s off.”   All the alarms that were like coming inside of me was saying, “Careful, careful, back away,” I was shutting them down, saying, “But look at all the stuff he’s doing.”  And that was the trap.

If I have to warn anyone about anything is really, over history of humanity, we’ve fallen into this trap over and over again as people, as in marriages, and people end up in abusive marriages.  It’s not because they’re dumb and not educated.  There are a lot of educated people that fall into it is because we look at someone who does great things and we don’t look at their character, their humility.  That’s a really dangerous when you do that.  And abusive people are drawn to a place of power.  They’re usually charismatic and in a place of power, and they usually do a lot of great stuff.

But as a Christian, I realized as my husband was in prison that God was like, “I don’t care about that.  I can change a nation within a moment.  I don’t look for people that can do great things for me.  I’m looking for a humble, kind, loving person.  If you don’t have love, nothing matters.  It doesn’t matter what you’re doing.  If you can have love and compassion for your fellow human being, who cares [about] all the great things you’re doing.”  All the dictators of the world have done amazing things for their people in their country, but they also killed millions, you know.  Look at Russia; they killed the most voiceless, the most weak people of their country.  Look at Germany, the Jews.  I mean, they do great things, but they also do much evil.

Again, as a Christian, I look at the Bible and God doesn’t care about people that do great things.  He cares more about the character of the person at home – are you loving your wife and children well?  Are you humble?  Are you reaching out to your neighbor?  Are you being a person of peace instead of someone who causes rift and hatred and anger?  What are you doing as a person?  You might never do great things in your life, your name may never be known in society, but that doesn’t matter in God’s eye.  If you’ve been faithful to where you’ve been, if you’ve been in Boise, Idaho, loving your neighbor, that’s what matters, even if you haven’t done “great things” for the world.

And I think that’s a deception we really need to be careful of.  That’s what had me end up in an abusive marriage is the great things.  I focused on the great things versus the character, versus is this person a loving, humble person?  And I turned off all the alarms that said, “Nope, he’s not showing compassion here.  He’s being cruel here.”  And I closed my eyes because he was doing great things for God, you know?

Andrea:  Do you think the people that were applauding him have had their eyes opened to any degree in the last few years?

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yeah, I’ve had some people come back because at first, I tried to defend myself.  I tried to explain, and then I really felt God telling me, “Just be quiet, let me defend you.”  And as years went by, he showed his true colors and people were shocked that he was not the hero that he made out to be, and they came back and said, “We apologize, we judged you.”  But there are people that are still following him and supporting him.  And over time, it didn’t matter anymore.  I didn’t really have to prove anything anymore.

But yeah, it was hard at the beginning because he was on the news, and he was a hero that had come out of prison, I was the bad person.  I didn’t do a good job of shutting my mouth.  I tried to explain to people that I was telling the truth, but then after a few months, I said, “You know what, Okay, I’m done.  I don’t need to explain to people.  People-pleasing needs to be out of my life.”  You know, it’s a struggle all the time, but I got rid of that.  God got rid of that in me a lot.  We all still struggle with people-pleasing and how people view us, but I just had to let it go and say, “Okay, people are gonna worship him no matter what.  There are some people that are gonna do that.”  But I’ve had a lot of people turn around and say, “We see what you’re saying now.”

Andrea:  Now, you and Mariam, you guys seem to have some diverse background in terms of cultural context, and the people that you work with.  Is that true?

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yes, it’s just beautiful.  I love it.  She grew up in Africa.  I grew up in the Middle East, and totally different cultures, different worlds.  Her mom is Ethiopian, they went to Sudan, I think as refugees.  She grew up as a refugee and her life experience is just so powerful, you know, and then she came to America in 2014.  But most of her life was spent in Africa.  And for me, a third of my life, you know, a fourth of my life now was spent in Iran.  And we come from two different cultures, but she’s a sister.  And our other co-founder, she’s American with a European background.  We just get along.  We love each other.  We support each other, and that’s been the most beautiful thing I’ve found through this journey.

When I was in my marriage, I couldn’t have any friends.  I was isolated.  And when I came out of it, God has given me so many good girlfriends, and to think we were all raised…  Like, our other colleague who co-founded this with us, she was raised in America, I was raised in the Middle East, and Mariam was born and raised in Africa.  And for us to get together and really enjoy our differences… I mean, we’ve had to learn to communicate because we just communicate differently because I was born in Iran and raised, you know, in a different culture.

But as we learned, we’ve really enjoyed our differences.  They’ve really enriched my life to talk to women that are different.  We have another colleague working with us, she’s Hispanic.  And that diversity has been so beautiful.  I’ve enjoyed it so much and to just be friends with other women that are not like me and we can learn from each other and we can grow with each other, and we can just love each other.  And we all come from different political backgrounds, political ideas, but it doesn’t bother us.

I mean, we have super conservative, we have liberal, we all stand on different issues in a different way, but we can just talk in a very, you know, peaceful way and we get along.  We love each other.  There’s no resentment because one person believes, you know… I guess, leans towards a certain party and the other leans towards another party.  It’s just beautiful, because we’re so different, but we really enjoy that difference and I think that’s what America is about.  That’s what I love about America.  When I came to America, it’s like, there’s so many people of different backgrounds and you just can go, “Oh!”  I love learning the Chinese culture and going to Chinatown, eating there.  I didn’t have that in Iran.  I just had Iranian, Iranian, Iranian.

Here, I came here, there was, like, Hispanic and Chinese and this.  I love that.  In Iran, it was just Iranian.  There were some Afghanis that would come here and there, but the culture… and then, again, this organization, we’re all different women with different backgrounds, different political thoughts and ideas, and we just get along and we’re really good friends and I just love that.  It’s so beautiful.  It really enriches my life.

Andrea:  So, when you think about those who’d like to be a Voice of Influence, to want to have a Voice of Influence – and perhaps with people who are being oppressed – but they’re from a different background, they’re from a different perspective, or they’re from a different culture, do you have anything that you would like to share with us about how we can best be a Voice of Influence in that kind of a situation?

Naghmeh Panahi:  Yeah.  I’m not an expert, but the way that has worked in my life, I’ve gotten my hands dirty.  I’ve gone into communities.  I remember, I’ve mentored people of low income, whether they were refugees from Middle East or African from Africa.  I have always been in those communities.  And the more I have been in them, the more it has changed me to see the world in a different perspective and not be afraid.  I’ve actually brought people reluctantly into these refugee groups where there’s a lot of Muslims, and they’ve been afraid.  But it’s been beautiful to bring them and say, “Okay, see, they’re not scary.”  And it’s actually so beautiful there.  You sit with them, the culture, they bring all sorts of food and Syrian…

Here in Boise, there are so many cultures.  You wouldn’t believe that.  It’s one of the refugee cities.  But when you go into these neighborhoods and you see them for who they are, and they’re all sorts from all over Africa – from Sudan, from Ethiopia, from Eritrea, and you have Middle East – you have all over the world and you see how they interact, how they’re in each other’s houses.  They eat together.  So, I think it starts with to be able to influence you really need to understand and it’s just hanging out with them.  It’s okay if you mess up culturally.  I’ve messed up.  I come from the Middle East, and I’ve made some really crazy mistakes with someone of a different culture, even Syrian culture.  And I’m like, “Oops, sorry, I didn’t know that.”  Just laugh it off, and they understand.

So, don’t be afraid of messing up or offending.  They understand you weren’t born in their…  I mean, I was born and raised for the first nine years of my life in Iran.  I make cultural mistakes with Iraqis and Syrians all the time, and we’re with same region.  So, you really need to get your hands dirty.  You really need to be in communities.

When I was in college, I helped mentor some black kids and I would bring them to my college.  I just went into the black communities.  And at that time, you know, Tacoma, there was some racial tension.  So, as someone from Middle East, I really put myself out there and really went into those black communities and made some really, really good friends, and it changed me as a person.

So, I think for me, being a Voice of Influence is you really have to be willing to get your hands dirty.  You have to be willing to kind of mess up your schedule a little bit, you know.  I think coming from a European background sometimes, as Americans, we can be like, “I have an opening right here.”  Like, set up your time where it’s everything’s like lined up, but it’s like, what if you spend half a day in a refugee neighborhood?  It might mess up your schedule, but if you want to be a Voice of Influence, just let your schedule be ruined for one day and just go hang out with these people and get to know them.  It’s going to change you, and it’s going to change the way you interact, and it’s going to change the people around you.  That’s what I think.

Andrea:  I love that.  Okay, so, Naghmeh, would you share with us how can people connect with you and TAF, and how would you point them to your resources?

Naghmeh Panahi:  I have social media under Naghmeh Panahi – Twitter, Instagram, Facebook.  And I think it’s harder to find our organization, but if you find me, you can kind of link into what our organization does.  It’s Tahrir Alnisa Foundation, but if you type in Naghmeh Panahi, it’s going to all come up.  I share stuff on social media quite a bit.  I think we talked about a while ago about Leah, a girl who was abducted in Nigeria.  We’ve done a prayer vigil for her.

So, we kind of focus on different things whether it’s religious freedom, women who’ve been oppressed in that way, or domestic abuse.  And being a voice for them and not just through social media; we take actions, we have an advocacy.  Part of what we do where we actually reach out to government officials and ask for change, and that’s one of our passions and goals is to see change in the way our government addresses domestic abuse and oppression.

So, over the year that we’ve started, we’ve met with many government officials and had very good talks.  And we’ve had talks with our government, with the Vice President’s office, with the White House and a dialogue of how can we have a system that protects the oppressed and abused, and women can be believed and they can be protected and so can the children.  So, you can look me up and hopefully you’ll learn more about what we do.

Andrea:  Great, thank you so much!  And we’ll link to that in the show notes too so that people can find you easily.

All right, thank you so much for being with us today, Naghmeh.  You have a beautiful story.  It’s tragically beautiful, but it’s so beautiful with such a redemptive ending…` and not that there’s an end to it yet, but a redemptive story that you have, that you’re telling.  And I’m grateful that you could be a Voice of Influence for our listeners today.

Naghmeh Panahi:  Thank you, Andrea.  It’s just wonderful talking with you, and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity.  Thank you!

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Deceptive Myths About the Abuse of Power (Part 2)

Episode 145

Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

My Voice of Influence colleague, Rosanne Moore, is back on the show for part two of our series on breaking down destructive myths surrounding coercive control and abuse of power.

In part one, we went over the first seven myths and, in this episode, we’ll be going over the next seven.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

 

Transcript

Hey, hey!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Today, I have with me again, Rosanne Moore who is on the Voice of Influence team.  This is episode 2, part two of a two-part series around abuse of power and how coercive control, people who are trying to take coercive control, what the kind of myths are that people believe about that.

And so, we’re debunking some myths today and last week about this abuse of power and understanding situations like this is so important.  I’m so glad that we are doing it, Rosanne.  It is such an important thing for people to understand, not just people that are going through it, but even leaders, people who want to have a voice of influence.  Why does it matter to that person?  Why should they understand these myths?

Rosanne Moore:  Because you really can’t leave an abusive situation without help.  You need help on some level, something outside of yourself.  One of the dynamics of coercive control is to eliminate outside support systems.  And so, if we can get society to understand the myths and we challenge those so that people respond differently, we have a better chance of providing an outside support system for people who are trying to leave abusive situations.  Truth matters and wrong belief systems have terrible consequences.

Andrea:  Not only for that one person, but for the people that are around them for their work environment, for their church environment, or for their family. 

Rosanne Moore:  Yes, absolutely. 

Andrea:  All right.  And we want you to know on the outset, first of all, you need to go back.  If you haven’t listened to the last episode, please go back and listen to it.  You can listen to this one first.  That’s fine, but you do want to hear both episodes if you’re interested on this topic and if you really do want to be as somebody who is informed about this as a voice of influence, somebody who is informed about abusive relationships, coercive control, and how to really empower and bolden others that need it.

And we want you to know that there is a list of resources, a free download available for those who are seeking to get out of in particular an abusive marriage or intimate relationship.  And you can find that list of resources by texting to the number 44222 and text the letters VOI for Voice of Influence, VOILifeline all one word.  So, VOILifeline, text it to the number 44222.  You can also find information about that and a course that we are going to be offering and perhaps are already out depending on when you listen to this episode.  And you can find all that information at voiceofinfluence.net/lifeline.

OK, Rosanne, we’re going to tackle some more myths.  We’re going to debunk some more myths.  So number eight, this is something that the people say.  They hold it deeply.  They hold it deeply inside their heart, I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard it or even like I remember thinking it and it’s almost embarrassing to say that but you think to yourself, “That can’t be true of so and so. They are such a good person.”

Rosanne Moore:  Right.

Andrea:  Why is this a myth?

Rosanne Moore:  OK.  Abusive people work very hard to present a persona that is trustworthy so that they can gain access and so they can be very generous.  They usually put on a very convincing, very charming, or very generous.  They are nice.  Niceness is not a character trait.  I think it was Boz Tchividjian who said it, “It’s not a character trait, it’s a personality presentation that you can choose.”  Niceness is a choice.  It’s not a character quality.

A person can choose nice behavior.  They can choose to do something that looks generous, all for the goal of gaining trust in order to betray.  People who work as spies in other countries do it all the time, you know.  We talk a lot about sleeper cells or whatever.  The whole idea of many horror movies is that the person that seems the most trustworthy is the one that turns out to be a serial killer or whatever, right?

And so the idea that we know, we just absolutely know that this person couldn’t be capable of what’s being accused, that that is a reason in and of itself not to investigate, not to seek further information, not to look at something as a possibility.  That’s what abusers count on.  That is what people count on.  I don’t know how many times that I have heard people say, “Well, you know, a person is innocent until proven guilty.”  No, that’s not true.  Legally, they are presumed innocent until proven guilty.  But if they did it, they did it whether they ever get proved or not.

People frequently say that “Well, a person is innocent until proven guilty.”  And the actual legal term is a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.  In other words, you’re not supposed to face, like legal charges unless there’s evidence that you are guilty.  But the reality is if a person is guilty, they are guilty whether anybody else recognizes it or not.

And so the unintended effect of that, I will say this too, one of the hardest things for people who are in an abusive relationship is, although I’m not negating the need for there to be a presumption of innocence, the same presumption of innocence needs to be offered to the person who is coming forward with an allegation of abuse.

Andrea:  Wow.

Rosanne Moore:  Because what happens to them typically is they are treated as if they were a liar and a manipulator, and that they have ulterior motives.  The same presumption of good motives needs to be given to the person who’s coming forth with an allegation because statistically, it’s far more likely that they’re telling the truth and they’re paying a heavy price to do it.  And so that’s just something, I’m not saying that there’s not the need for investigation.  What I’m saying is there needs to be a willingness to be open-minded and to not assume we already know the facts because this person looks good on the surface.  Because we haven’t personally run into any treachery with this person does not automatically mean that somebody else hasn’t.

Andrea:  You know, Rosanne, as I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking in an abroad kind of way, people who have done really amazing things.  You look at the Harvey Weinstein’s case.  You look at a number of people.  We’ll just leave it at that, you know Bill Cosby. 

Rosanne Moore:  Bill Cosby.

Andrea:  Yes, exactly.  You look at these gentlemen and you think to yourself, “gentlemen,” you think to yourself “funny.”  You’re thinking to yourself “brilliant,” you know, because of the amazing work that they’ve done in the world, whatever they’ve produced or whatever.  And so it’s a great loss to actually say that they could actually be wrong.  Maybe they’re not such a good person.  Maybe they’ve done some amazing things, but people are complicated.  They’re not just evil or good.  They’re very often have done good things in the world but have done very bad things.  And unfortunately, those bad things have consequences that have to be dealt with; otherwise, they’re going to just keep going and going.

Rosanne Moore:  One of the most chilling things I’ve ever read is the account of a young German woman who talked about, she worked as a waitress at a hotel that Hitler frequented during the war.  And she talked about how kind he was and how he would ask after her mother and sisters and the things that he did that went out of his way to, you know, do nice things for her family.  It was just unbelievable the account that she gave of him and of his top generals said that the same people who are systematically torturing and murdering thousands of people, if you hear her account, were also capable of doing generous things, you know, for her and her family.  And it was chilling to read.

I mean, there was a level of denial even with all of the evidence to the contrary because she had had a good experience with them that she felt like they’re being made out to be worse than they are.  And as she said, “People are complicated and we are made in the image of God,” which means we are capable of great good, but we are capable of making terrible choices.  That image has been impacted by our separation from God and we’re capable of doing terrible things and justifying those to ourselves.  That’s something we have to grapple with deeply.

Andrea:  Hmm.  And then I know that another myth that we’d talked about has to do with when a victim comes forward you think to yourself, “The victims of abuse should be able to accurately account details.  They’re confused.  Why are they confused?  Well, they must be lying.”  Tell us why that’s not right.

Rosanne Moore:  Or yeah, they changed their timeline.  Their details changed or whatever.  Trauma impacts memory, memory is malleable to begin with but trauma impacts the brain.  And it doesn’t mean that you’re coming up, like you’re just creating things in your mind, but you can be piecing together things from different incidents and putting them together so that they’re not really accurate.  They happened, but maybe not at the time that you’re thinking they both happened, things like that.

So often, abuse victims are expected to behave in ways that they would only be capable of behaving if they had not actually been honest.  If you think simply about anybody who’s involved in law enforcement who’s been trained in taking witness statements.  If you have four witnesses to something and their story is exactly alike, that’s a sign that they’re lying.

They’ve planned a story because in reality, if you have four witnesses to the same crime or the same incident, they’re all going to be noticing different things.  Their perceptions are going to be different.  The core truth of what’s there may overlap, but they’re all going to be seeing something somewhat differently.  And so, often there’s this great burden of expectation that somebody who has been deeply traumatized should be able to give a very clear, cohesive, you know, organized account of what happened.  And in fact, that’s not true.  That would be an indication that they were making it up, not that they were telling the truth.

Andrea:  Very important to know.  All right, number 10, this is 10 of 14.  We did the first seven in the first episode.  Don’t forget to go back and listen to that.  All right, number 10; “She’s the one who is harming everyone.”

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah.

Andrea:  Now, wait a second.  In what context are we hearing this, Rosanne?

Rosanne Moore:  OK, so all right.  There’s a woman that I have walked closely with who she discovered her husband was having an affair and she made known that she was going to be taking legal steps to protect herself and her children and he didn’t pay child support and alimony when he was supposed to.  And so she followed through with court system and he ended up going to jail for not paying what he was supposed to be paying.  He withheld funds for the provision of children and he went to jail.

And her mother-in-law said, “You put him in jail.”  

No, he made all of those choices.  He chose to be unfaithful.  He chose to shack up with somebody else and to spend money on drugs and other things.  He chose not to provide for his children.  He put himself in jail.  She didn’t do that, she just asked the court to address the behavior that he chose.  And yet you see that happen constantly, you know that kind of thing.

The abused one who comes forward in a church setting and is told, “Well, you are harming not only him but his family and you’re harming the name of Christ.”  

No, he chose all of that by choosing to behave in unhealthy ways, in wrongful ways.  

In a situation where there’s a whistleblower in a corporation, “You’re harming our bottom line.  Our stock has dropped because of you, because you made this known.”  

No, whoever did the deceitful or unethical thing; they’re the ones who created that situation.  It’s not the whistle blower, it’s the one who did the wrong that created the situation and yet has fallout for other people.  Be mad at the right person, not at the one who calls the abuser on it but for the one who makes the bad choice.

Andrea:  Hmm, so important.  OK, number 11; this really shouldn’t impact you that bad “Why do you have to make such a big deal of this sort of thing?

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  I can tell you that when you live with somebody who is seeking to destroy you and who’s constantly playing mind games with you, who is constantly attempting to distort your perception of reality, one of the impacts of that is that it makes you distrust your own judgment.  Another reason, just to kind of go back a little bit, why is it difficult to the whole thing of accounting details in a timeline or whatever.  This plays into that as well.

Often an awareness of what’s happening dawns over time.  You see things that don’t add up, but then there’s a plausible explanation that gets given and so you accept that because you don’t want to be hard-nosed and so an awareness of what’s happening unfolds over time.  But then in retrospect, when you look back and you realize, “I saw signs of this, I should have figured it out sooner.  I should have known.  I should have somehow like recognized what was going on and protected myself and then I could have escaped being through all this pain or having my children go through this pain,” whatever.  All of that happens in your head.  It takes time to uncover that.

The reality is we’re built for trusting healthy relationships and when those are violated and violated at a deep level the way that they are in a domestic abuse situation; it’s not just your trust in other people, it’s trusting your own judgment that gets violated.  And that’s what keeps women in that or keeps going back for so long.

So this kind of goes back as well to the whole issue of that there should be a sequential account that can be given and a cohesive narrative and all of that.  The reality is a person who’s in an abusive situation, they see things, but then they’re given a plausible explanation for them and so they go on.  And the awareness of what’s actually happening takes place over time.  And so when the clarity about what has happened finally comes enough so that they start to take steps to get out of the abusive situation, they’re looking back and they’re thinking, “Oh, I should have seen this sooner.”  I mean, when and such and such happened, like, “Why didn’t I get out?”  Or “What didn’t I do something differently then?”  So they’re actually their own sense of being able to trust their perceptions have been undermined over time.

So, not only do they have to learn to trust other people after having their trust deeply violated, and that’s a big part of health is the ability to trust again, trust other people again.  But first they have to learn to trust their own perceptions again.  And when you have your own sense of your ability to know who is safe and who’s not and what’s right and what’s not right and all of that, when that gets taken from you, when that gets violated that takes time to recover that.  It’s like having the floor fall out from under you and just be in free fall for a long time.

And there are also physiological changes that take place.  A lot of times, women who are in abusive relationships get accused of being codependent and what they actually are is trauma bonded.  Codependency has to do with behavior patterns that try to manage somebody else’s addiction, unhealthy caretaking patterns that try to manage somebody else’s addiction.

A trauma bonding is actual changes in the brain of someone who’s being abused where they’re trying to figure out in the relationship what’s causing the person to behave badly sometimes and be kind other times.  It’s not necessarily a cycle, but there’s usually some reward delivery system that’s intermittent that takes place in an abusive relationship and the person is being told something that you did caused the punishment. 

And then the person will be nice, and so they’re trying to figure out,  “What was it that made the relationship work?” at that point where they’re regaining your trust.  And not only does it draw you back in emotionally, but there are actual physiological changes that take place in trauma bonding in the brain where it’s almost like an addictive chemical release in the brain, and it’s one of the most difficult things to overcome.  And so it takes time and it takes proper understanding with a therapist, working with therapist who understands trauma to be able to get through that.  You can’t just flip a switch.  Just because you’re out of the relationship doesn’t mean all of that goes away.  It takes time.  It takes safety.  It takes safe people to be able to recover from that.

Andrea:  Hmm.  OK, so, here we are at number 12.  This myth that “The victim must be exaggerating.” 

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  Usually, actually, in a domestic abuse situation and coercive control situation, the person is not exaggerating.  They’re minimizing.  They’re actually minimizing, and that’s because denial while it has its negatives, it also serves the function of only giving us as much information as we can deal with in a highly traumatic situation.

Andrea:  And you said that’s denial that does that.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah.

Andrea:  So denial serves both purposes.

Rosanne Moore:  Right.

Andrea:  Denial for the person who is being abused is what you’re talking about right now. 

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  For the person who’s being abused, denial is both friend and foe.  When you’re living in that kind of intense trauma, there’s only so much reality that you can handle at a time without being completely destroyed by it.  And so when you take that little part that you can bear to talk about and you take it to another person and their response is to say, you’re exaggerating, that person’s actually being gaslighted by society in general.  Gaslighting comes from a movie, an old movie where there was a deliberate attempt by an abuser to drive his wife insane in order to get her money.

Andrea:  And to make her think that she was wrong all the time and that she wasn’t thinking correctly.

Rosanne Moore:  That she was losing her mind, where he would adjust the gaslights in the house to make the lights flicker and then tell her that that wasn’t happening.  So she would think she was losing her mind.  So when someone takes that piece of information that they’re able finally to address and they go to someone else and they’re being told, “You’re just exaggerating, it’s not that bad.  You should be able to cope.”  It’s incredibly damaging, incredibly damaging.  The reality is most of the time that’s the tip of the iceberg, and what’s happening underneath in the dynamics of the relationship is far, far worse.

And when someone in that situation takes that little piece of information and is finally heard and is brought to a safe place where they can start to unpack it, usually you’re looking at a huge process of having to look at what the depths of the reality that they were living with actually is.  And so it’s adding insult to injury to say, “Oh, you’re just exaggerating.”

Andrea:  Hmm.  So number 13, “I couldn’t possibly be deceived by this person.  Surely I know that this isn’t true.”

Rosanne Moore:  Well, the reality is all of us are vulnerable to deception if we’re given the right circumstances.  All you have to do, again, go back to Nazi Germany, you had an entire nation, there were a few people who stood out as being people who didn’t buy into the lie, who saw what was happening and spoke out against it.  But the vast majority of the country was not Nazi.  They didn’t agree with the ideology, but they were impacted by it.  They were party to it.  They helped make it happen because they didn’t see the dynamics of what was happening for what they were and they minimized, and all it took was being afraid to speak up or looking the other way or collaborating in various ways.  So, you didn’t have to be the spearhead that was doing the actual abuse, all you had to do is collaborate by not speaking out.

Andrea:  OK.  And just this idea of not speaking out, I think, it’s tough for people to know, Rosanne, when they should speak out and when they shouldn’t, especially on behalf of somebody else. 

Rosanne Moore:  Right.

Andrea:  It’s hard to know and yet when you see somebody being targeted for abuse or you see these negative behaviors to not stand up and say something…

Rosanne Moore:  Empowers the abuser.

Andrea:  It certainly does, it certainly empowers the abuser and so silence, unfortunately, is consent.

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  Yes, yes.  You know, part of this is when I say that everybody is vulnerable to deception given the right circumstances, part of the protection against this is being really honest about what motivates you. 

Andrea:  Oh, that’s so good.

Rosanne Moore:  You know, you’re going to be less likely to be open to hearing from someone about an abuse situation if the person that they’re accusing is someone that does something for you or you’re somehow a member of the tribe that they help lead. That can be political.  I mean, we see it all the time in both political parties where they’ll point to something in the other side that they are giving a blind eye too in their own camp.  That’s true in churches where they’ll criticize something that’s outside, but they won’t deal with it when it’s in their own myths.

So, there has to be an awareness of what am I getting out of choosing not to listen, not to see, and not to be willing to investigate.  That’s a big part of it is we’re most vulnerable to deception when we have our own motives that are being served, our own agenda that is being served.

Andrea:  And that’s a toughie because people want to believe that their tribe, that their people are good people and that anybody that would come and attack their people are bad people.  And so we do this dualistic kind of idea in our minds about good and evil and assume that we’re on the side of good and that those who are with us are on the side of good when we’re all very much more complicated than that.  And if we can’t recognize that, if we don’t humble ourselves to recognize that we could also be deceived – it’s humility.  It’s the honest humility that’s saying I might not be right.

Rosanne Moore: Right, right.

Andrea:  And if we can’t say that we’re going to end up inadvertently possibly, very sadly helping abusers.

Rosanne Moore:  I would say that’s the early stages of it, is that the humility to recognize that I could be deceived and be willing to humble myself and investigate.  But then the backside of that or the deeper implication is when we lack that and we’re challenged with evidence, then there’s a hardening that I’ve seen take place where that unwillingness because now I have something to defend.  Not only do I not want to admit that I’m not capable of being deceived, but I have decided that I have to be on the right side already.  Therefore, anything further challenges not just my perception, but my rightness.

Andrea:  Uh-hmm, my identity.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes, my identity, exactly.  And so then not only am I willing to look at the possibility of being deceived, but now once I’ve chosen not to go there and I’ve taken steps that have proven to be wrong then I have to face that I actually was the bad guy.  I was not the hero.  I empowered evil, and a lot of people are not willing to recognize that, I mean, all of us.  I will say this myself, I have journeyed with abuse survivors for over 30 years, and I did not do it well early on because I had a lot of these myths that I believed, and I was not good at listening appropriately early on.

And so part of my own journey has been having to humble myself and recognize I was at times part of the problem, not part of the solution.  The only way I can be a good guide now is to be willing to acknowledge when I’m wrong.

Andrea:  Yeah, absolutely.  And that’s really hard.  It’s really hard to do when you feel so strongly about a topic, and the person that you’re defending cares about that topic too.

Rosanne Moore:  Right, right.

Andrea:  But I think that’s just the idea of keeping in mind that everybody is complicated and that we’re not all just good or evil and that we could also be wrong about things.  This is being a mature person, and if you’re wanting to have a voice of influence in the world, you have to cultivate these things in yourself.  You have to be able to confront some of the really hard things in life and kind of take a really hard look at yourself in order to be able to move forward so that you can actually be an advocate, be a support, be a positive impact on the culture to minimize the power dynamics that are at play and be a part of good.  And I say good – it kind of sounds like we’re the good ones and they’re the bad ones – I guess, and I don’t really mean that, but you know, to be furthering good in the world.

Rosanne Moore:  Right, there is good and evil that is absolute.  And at times we join it and at times we don’t.  And so instead of trying to see ourselves in terms of us being good or evil, we need to acknowledge that we’re a mixture and that we need to be constantly looking at where we’re giving place to evil in our lives so that we can move away from that. 

Andrea:  So good.  OK, and this last one is a toughie.  It’s a hard one to swallow Rosanne, and so I hope that you can leave us on a positive note in some way.  But the last myth that we’re talking about is “If I tell the truth, the system will bring me justice.”

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.

Andrea:  And why is that not necessarily true?

Rosanne Moore:  And the social myth being that if what the woman is sharing is true, then the system will protect her.  It’s not true because the laws are written by fallible people, and they’re executed by fallible evil, and the same things that can be social myths in the greater society also play out in the court system.  I have frequently heard it said that the courts favor women.  If they accuse abuse, the courts automatically assume that that’s true.

A study was recently done that shows absolutely, that is not true.  Actually, if a woman comes forward with allegations of abuse, it doesn’t really matter how much evidence she has that her children are being abused; the court will actually punish her for trying to protect her kids.  And so you just have to understand that the court is flawed.  And while I do not advocate doing anything illegal – you definitely want to utilize the court system to the degree that you can.

One of the things I had to come to terms with, I went into a very naive thinking that I will just tell the truth, and I’ll present evidence of the truth, and the legal system will protect me.  And that was not the case, at least not to the degree that I expected that it would happen.  And so that was a bitter pill. That almost as bad as the whole situation I was facing, was the sense of betrayal that I felt by the legal system.  The courts tend to assume that women exaggerate the abuse to use it as a weapon to get back at somebody that they’re just fed up with for lesser reasons.

This isn’t true, but that’s the mindset.  That’s the myth that the court is operating under.  Often the boxes that the lawyers are ticking off basically in terms of building a case,  lawyers build a case looking at the laws and these are the parameters for how we build a case.  Those boxes often don’t fit the reality of what an abuse situation looks like. 

And so you may have a good attorney who’s able to take enough of your situation and put it in a box that they can protect you.  But if your situation is kind of outside those boxes, then your solution lies outside of those boxes.  That’s not suggesting that you should thumb your nose at the law, but one of the things that we’re going to address in the Lifeline system is what do you do, for instance, when you have a partner who is an abusive parent without engaging in criminal behavior.  So your children are having to deal with abuse, but it’s not the kind of abuse that the law views as criminal and therefore will take action on.

There are things you can do but your help is going to have to come outside the legal system.  It’s not going to be from the system itself.  Like I said, I had a very naive view of the justice system, but what I’ve come to realize is the legal system can restrain evil, but it cannot provide justice.  God has to do that.  And it doesn’t come on our timetable, unfortunately.  I mean, no, ultimately, fortunately, because He knows more about what we need than we do.  But the legal system can only restrain evil.  It can’t provide us ultimate justice, and that’s an awareness we have to come to the system with so that we’re not asking it to do something it’s not capable of doing.

Andrea:  Or expecting it to save us in a way, like, there’s a lot of responsibility that you still have to sort of understand how to make it work, how to navigate it.  And in hearing, Rosanne, the content of the Lifeline course and working with you on that, it has helped me to have a way better idea of the importance of so many different kinds of support that women need and how they can get that support and then how they can navigate all of the changes that they’re going through navigate the legal system.  Not that you’re a lawyer, we’re certainly not lawyers, though there some counseling background and spiritual direction background in Voice of Influence, we’re not claiming counseling or, you know, legal advice in this course; however it is a guide for someone to help gain clarity that they know how to proceed with the right people.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes, and how to choose the professionals that can help them in those areas.

Andrea:  So if you don’t have a friend that has been down this road before and can help you make those decisions then this course would certainly be a benefit to a woman that is going through that process. 

Rosanne Moore:  You asked about, how do we look at that last one with hope?

Andrea:  Yeah.

Rosanne Moore:  The system can’t bring me justice, but God is a God of justice.  God is a God of justice. He is always on the side of the oppressed.  He’s always against oppression.  And so when we feel trapped, I mean that was the point that I had to keep coming back to.  I’ve worked this past week with a woman who is in an extremely dangerous situation, and we are trying to get her all of the people on her team that can help her get out of that safely and preserve her life.  This is probably the most escalated violent situation that I’ve worked with to date, and we got some bad news earlier in the week.   That night, my prayer was, “God, evil cannot be stronger than you.  It just can’t be stronger than you, so we need you to step into this because evil cannot be stronger than you.”

And the next day, the resources that she needed came into place.  And so that I would say is while the system is flawed, like every other man-made thing, God is on the side of the oppressed.  And so there is hope.  There is hope, and if anybody hearing this feels absolutely trapped in your situation, there is a way of escape, and you want to proceed carefully, we want to help you get resources.  You don’t want to act precipitously, we want to help you put things in place to keep things as safe as possible for you.  That’s our goal.

But just know that there is hope.  You do not have to believe what you’re being told by your oppressor, which is that there is no way out.  That’s not true.  There are things that can be done to help rescue you.

Andrea:  Yeah, I mean it’s so complicated.  I just want to say too that there’s no promises, there’s no guarantees in life.  Even with prayer, there’s no guarantee that something will just come.

Rosanne Moore:  But I will say, I have seen again and again and again and again with the women that I’ve worked with – I’ve seen again and again and again because one of the lies that women believe that there is nothing that they can do, that they are completely helpless.  And they stay in that situation for a long time believing that there is no way out, but when they art to come to terms with the possibility of escape, I have seen things lined up that were not readily visible.

So are there bad things that happen?  Yes, there are.  But I would tell you that there are options that may not be immediately visible for you and we want to try to get you the resources that you need, get you plugged in locally or wherever, to things that can help make that path of escape for you.

Andrea:  Thank you so much for sharing this.  I don’t know your passion for this Rosanne, your wisdom that you have gained through walking very difficult path.  And I want to remind everyone that you can download the list of resources by texting, VOILifeline, Voice of Influence Lifeline, VOILifeline, all one word, no spaces to the number 44222.  And you can also find that information there as well as information about the course at voiceofinfluence.net/lifeline.  We hope that this is helpful for a lot of people.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.

Andrea:  All right.  Thank you so much for spending your time with us today.  Rosanne and I are glad that you have stuck it out and listened and are so grateful that you’re open to learning and growing and, you know, finding even more humility within yourself to be able to recognize that some of these myths might even be things that you have thought in yourself.  So let’s go out and know that…

Rosanne Moore:  I was going to say just a word of challenge.  Next time you watch a crime drama, pay attention to how many of these myths are voiced in it because they’re very common in television.

Andrea:   Hmm.  Perfect.  OK, so just know that your voice matters and you can make it matter more.  Thanks, Rosanne!

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How to Talk About Racism Online and with Kids with Lucretia Berry

Episode 144

Lucretia Berry Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Last week, we brought you part one of a two-part series about the myths around abuse and coercive control.

We had originally planned to release the second part of that series this week, however, we decided that given the events of the past few weeks, in particular, how things really escalated this week around the issues of racial injustice, we decided instead to release this interview with Lucretia Berry.

Lucretia is the creator of Brownicity, an anti-race/ism curriculum specialist, a writer for in(Courage).me, the author of What LIES Between Us Journal & Guide: Fostering First Steps Toward Racial Healing, a TED Talker, and a Senior Consultant for The American Dream Game. She received her Ph.D. in Education (Curriculum & Instruction) from Iowa State University.

In this episode, Lucretia shares why she created Brownicity and how it helps those at the beginning of their anti-racism journey, how the protests are about more than the recent deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor, how racism and racial injustice extends beyond police brutality, her response to those feeling overwhelmed and unsure of what to say or how to show up for others right now, why you can just jump on the bandwagon and follow along with things you see happening on social media, how she is discussing racism and anti-racism in her own multi-ethnic family, and more.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

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Transcript

Hey there!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Last week, we were set to kick off a series on understanding power structures.  And we began that series with a conversation that is actually a two-part conversation about the myths around abuse and coercive control.  So, we offered seven myths, and then we have seven more to share.  But we decided that given the events of the past few weeks – in particular, how things really escalated this week around the issues of racial injustice, social injustice, and the rioting and everything – we decided that we were going to go ahead.  

We had this interview with Lucretia planned, and rather than pushing it to where we were going to put it in the series, we decided to pull it right up to the front.  So, the rest of those myths will be posted next week as our next episode.

And today, I have with me Lucretia Berry from Brownicity.  Lucretia, well, she’s going to tell you a little bit more about herself and how she started this organization and what she does with it, but I love their tagline and I want to share it with you; “Many Hues, One Humanity.”  In researching for this interview with Lucretia, one of the things that I ran across was her example of just how everybody is just a different shade of brown.  It’s not like we’re, you know, white and brown and black, but we’re really all a different shade of brown and we are one humanity.

So, how can we, as voices of influence, have some sort of impact in this conversation?  What should we be doing?  What should I be doing with myself?  What should I be saying online or with others?  How do we have this conversation in a way that it’s really productive and not hurtful?  I know a lot of times we get frustrated because we’re wanting to contribute to a conversation like this, and we try but then we find out, “Oh, shoot, I said the wrong thing.”  And then we feel stupid, and we go hide back under our shell.

Well, I want to encourage you that Lucretia is going to have some words for you today that will be very helpful.  And the main thrust of this conversation is that it’s not just about jumping on a bandwagon right now.  It’s not just about declaring that we’re not racist.  It’s about going on a journey of deprogramming the inherent racism that we grew up with, the way that the world works, and understanding how we got to where we are now.  Instead of writing it off, taking it in, listening, admitting that maybe, I don’t know everything.  Maybe my perspective is limited and it’s important for me to listen.

So, I’m really, really honored to provide you with this conversation with Lucretia Berry.

Andrea:  All right.  So, Lucretia Berry is the creator of brownicity.com, a contributor for incourage.me, and a TED and Q Ideas speaker at TED Charlotte.  As a wife, mom of three and former college professor, her passion for racial healing led her to author What LIES Between Us:  Fostering First Steps Toward Racial Healing.

Lucretia, I’m really, really grateful that we had this conversation scheduled and that we’re here today.  I’m honored to have you, and would you tell us a little bit more about what you do with your organization, Brownicity?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Well, thank you for having me in.  Oh, my goodness, what timing this is because we scheduled this a while ago, a long time ago.

Brownicity – our tagline is “Many Hues, One Humanity”.  And as you said, I think because I am a former college professor – my doctorate is in education, curriculum, and instruction – I think I was literally designed to be a teacher, even though I didn’t want to become a teacher because of… we don’t really pay teachers or appreciate teachers.  I think after COVID, we do now.  But we didn’t before so I didn’t have aspirations to be a teacher, but just naturally, you know, I do love to teach.

So, Brownicity is more heavily focused on equipping and liberating people through making quality education around anti-racism literacy accessible.  So, for example, currently, you know, you can probably take a college course if you’re a college student.  If there are organizations in your community where you can do a workshop or something like that, those are available.  But what I was finding with lots of my friends, especially parents, moms, and regular everyday people are not policymakers or working at a corporation where they would get some type of diversity training… they didn’t have a touch point or access to some structured education.

And for the most part, it’s left up to people to educate themselves.  So, the good thing about that right now is that there are a lot of books now.  I would say like five years ago or so, not really.  Not a lot of like, you know, read it yourself and you can maybe figure this out yourself.  So, I put in… you know, like scaffolded education in place, and I started teaching… or I should say we, because it’s a group of us – so we just started teaching like in our communities.  Our first official “we’re doing this” type of… it was a woman who lived in a neighborhood who said, “I have a big house, I have lots of neighbors, and I’m going to invite them into my house.  Can you please come and teach my neighborhood?”  “Yes!”

Andrea:  Right.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  So, we go into churches.  Ultimately, I was asked to come into a school.  So, I packaged this curriculum or this kind of foundational course; it’s called What LIES Between Us, Journal & Guide: Fostering First Step Toward Racial Healing.  Because in my experience of doing this work, and attending workshops and meetings and kind of community-organized efforts is that people who are new to the conversation and even the idea of, you know, anti-racism… there weren’t a lot of resources for people who are new.  And so much of the good content, I believe, is for people who are already kind of on the journey.

So, there’s already this understanding that what race and racism actually are, like, they’re constructs, they’re not biological.  Well, the beginner, you know, doesn’t really know that and hasn’t been immersed in that understanding.  So, I wanted to create something, or I did create something that kind of takes the beginner and gives them a foundational understanding – here are definitions, here are terms, here’s how race was created as a construct and it’s not biological.  And then this is how the narratives been shaped and formed and fit into policies or policies shaped narratives.  This is how we’ve cultivated this over the years, and then this is the lens you have to have to be able to analyze these structures and institutions, and then here’s the lens you have to have to analyze yourself.

So, when people start there, then they’re able to move forward with more clarity and more urgency and wherever they decide to take their, you know, fundamental anti-racism education.  So, I am African-American.  My husband is white American.  We actually met doing this type of work together in a church, and we became great friends and then ultimately got married.  So, we’ve always been kind of immersed in awareness and consciousness, and have been active and intentional and hungry to learn more, to be a part of disrupting and dismantling kind of the systems, policies, behaviors, and beliefs that are in place that continue to move us…  They continue to keep us in the flow collectively, in the flow of racism.

So, we’ve been intentional and active about how to disrupt that flow or how to create an anti-racism flow, and therefore we’ve just been very vocal with our children.  And even before we had children, we talked about, “What is our framework for talking about racial dynamics in this country with our multi-ethnic children,” because it’s going to be a different education or different conversation than what my husband had growing up in Iowa in a white family.  And it’s going to be different than what I had growing up in the south in North Carolina in a black family.  So, again, we’ve had to do the work and figure some things out.  And yeah, I just told you all those things.

Andrea:  Thank you!

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  And here we are.

Andrea:  That’s perfect!  I think that lays a really solid foundation for the rest of our conversation because everybody has a better idea of where you’re coming from.  And I really appreciate the fact that Brownicity focuses, at least, gives the beginner the opportunity to understand this perspective and to understand the dynamics that are at play right now – not just right now, but all the time.  And because I think that, you know, we are having this conversation… usually, you know, it takes us a couple of weeks, at least or sometimes a couple of months after we have an interview before we release it.  And we’re having this conversation a couple of days before we release it because of everything that’s been going on lately.

I mean, the response to the deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, have certainly spotlighted injustice and triggered a national or international conversation about systemic injustice that people of color experience.  So, I want to ask you, from your point of view, what is the message that we all should be hearing right now?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Okay, so what we should be hearing is we have a deficit and we have been complicit with our deficit in loving, caring about, and offering opportunity to all of our citizens equally or in a way that treats everyone with the humanity in which they deserve to be treated.  So, you know, it’s unfortunate that it takes these types of tragedies to see the kind of the perpetual, ongoing, rampant systems that have been set in place, right, and secured and sustained for a long time because these are just like some outcomes and it’s just a few outcomes.  But, you know, we have people dying every day.

And I don’t mean dying, like, at the hands of police brutality.  I’m saying like, you know, African-Americans get less significant healthcare, or ghettoized – pushed into ghetto housing or displaced.  And, so, I think what we should be hearing now is there is a problem and it’s not going to go away until we actually address it, until we actually fix it and correct it.  And I hope people are hearing that it’s time to really understand the problem because it’s real.  So, it’s not made up.  This isn’t like an anecdotal, you know, every now and then this happens.  We have just been flowing in this stream and so fish have been dying.  And, so, I hope people are understanding, “Okay, now it’s time to look at the water and not simply look at the fish.  Let’s take a look at this water, let’s sample this water, and then let’s begin to detox this water.”

And many of us have been taught that the water is fine, you know, and our frameworks for even perceiving the water… it’s like you have a framework that allows you to perceive that the water is fine.  So, again, we need to look at the water and we also need to look at our lenses, through which we are offered this reality because our lenses have been skewed and our water is toxic, so as a result, you know, we see…

And now, in this day and age, we can film all of these things versus a few years ago, when something would happen that was overt like this… because again, racism unfolds and it impacts every single day in institutional ways, and in representation and exclusion, and all those things.  These are just cases that we are seeing that are so overt and flagrant that it grabs you and makes you see what has been happening for hundreds of years, or the seeds we’ve sown for hundreds of years.

Andrea:  And the protests have certainly grabbed.  I mean, it makes sense to me that it has taken even these voices rising up, even though, you know, nobody wants to see destruction.  At the same time, there’s been this awakening too, “Oh my gosh they’re really serious.  What’s going on?”  I think that there are people that are saying, “Okay, so what are we supposed to do here?”  And there’s this post kind of being copied and pasted and going around Facebook about, you know, “What am I supposed to do?  Like, if I’m silent, this happens; if I speak up, this happens; if I am trying to spread positivity, this happens,” and so on.

And I know the other day, the Blackout Tuesday, you know, there was a lot of concern about the hashtag.  If we use the #BlackLivesMatter with that particular picture then all of the other things that are being talked about with BlackLivesMatter gets pushed down in the newsfeeds and whatnot.  And I think that people are confused and frustrated thinking, “Wait a second, I’m trying to help.  Oh no, I screwed it up again.”

So, when people are wanting to help, they want to be good fellow humans, but they’re feeling caught off-guard and not really sure what to say or do.  What do you want to say to us?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:   I think, of course, people feel the pain or they are feeling the pain.  Like maybe they haven’t before to this degree, but I am realizing that people are feeling the pain of this time right now to a greater degree and saying you know, “What can I do?”  So, what happens is we want to react and, of course, social media is created for that, right?  It’s inherent in, you know, its design to say, “This is what I’m doing right now, and this is what we should be doing right now.”  So, what I would suggest – and have been suggesting for like five years – is that we don’t have these reactions that haven’t been thought-out, but instead that we become or we start or we maintain a journey that is anti-racism or anti-racist.  So, we make it a way of life and you begin by learning.

So, if I could have my way, I would say, “Okay, the rest of 2020 is canceled,” right?  And can everybody just make some time, take some time – maybe it’s not all day every day, but maybe it’s an hour a day, or thirty minutes a day, or fifteen minutes a day, an hour a week – to build your anti-racism literacy, to build your muscles and get immersed in anti-racism and anti-racism literacy.  Like, become a part of the movement because things are going to happen.  But that way, you already have things in your toolkit, you know, you already know how to flow.

So, here’s an example.  I woke up on Tuesday, and I kept seeing all these black squares, and I’m like, “Uh, what is happening?”  So, I go and figure this out, research this out, like, “What is this?”  And sure enough, of course, I have teachers, so I went to a person that I follow and then she explained why we shouldn’t be doing that because, yes, it was the hashtag interfering with the actual information that the BlackLivesMatter hashtag needed to be communicated.  So, I’m like, “Okay.”  So, immediately then I go and tell people that I knew, and I’m like, “Okay, you can do the blackout, but don’t use the hashtag.”

But you see that’s because I’m more, you know, immersed and on this flow, so I’m like, “Okay, careful, you know, carefully tread.”  Especially if it’s something that’s new like that.

Andrea:  Instead of jumping on with the bandwagon, whatever it might be, do a little research make sure you’re doing it right.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Right, you want to do that, but yeah, when you say jump on the bandwagon, so again, that’s not really anti-racist work, right?  That’s just, you know, reacting.  And yes, we can react, but I would like people to put more time into like the deeper work.  I saw that as well with the safety pin, and someone said, “Oh, should I wear this safety pin to show, you know, my allyship?”  And I’m like, “No, that’s performative.”  To me, it feels like you wanting to put on that safety pin is more about you being, like, seen as safe, but it really doesn’t do anything for black and brown bodies.  It really doesn’t do anything to then counter the flow – I’m going to keep going back to that analogy – it doesn’t do anything to counter the flow that we’re in.

And I want to do things or put my time and effort into what will actually disrupt this flow.  And that’s how I’ve led or that’s how I’ve moved in what I do, like, “Well, I don’t want to, you know, just do this.  Yes, I can do some things that show my support.”  So, as an educator, I’m like, “Okay, wherever I can possibly go to educate and to get people to turn their brains on and to be activated.”  That’s my activism is to activate these brains.  

So, we’re not just mindlessly participating and going in the flow.

Andrea:  So, what I’m hearing you say is that it’s not so much about this very moment… it is about this moment in that, you know, if we can be more sensitive to what’s going on and try to join the conversation in a very thoughtful and you know, somewhat researched way.  That’s a good thing, to share your heart and that sort of thing, maybe.  But the bigger issue here is that we should all be really going on this journey in committing to going on a journey of anti-racism in our own kind of reflecting, I would assume.

I mean, it seems to me like a lot of the work is on our own awareness and self-reflection on how this all has really been integrated into our own lives without us even realizing it.  Because I think part of what’s going on and what I’m hearing and certainly what I felt at times is, “Well, I’m not racist.  I don’t want anybody to think that I’m racist.”  And so we put up our black square, which I think that’s good and I did too.

But I can see, though, that it is so important…  This is how I’ve been in imagining it, and I want you to tell me if I’m right or wrong here.  But it seems that if I’m going to post something, I should also or if I’m going to say, “Wow, that was really thoughtful.”  I mean, I posted something from a friend, reposted her reflections on white privilege, and she’s also an interracial marriage but she’s white.  And it was just so powerful, and it really helped me to understand a new level of white privilege.

So, instead of just reposting and saying, “Wow, this is really powerful,” the real things I should be sharing or the thing that’s more powerful is if I share why it was so powerful to me.  What is changing in me when I read this?  Because if I’m vulnerably saying, “I didn’t understand this part,” then that’s allowing other people to be able to say, “Oh, wait a second, maybe I don’t understand it either.”

Okay, talk to me.  Tell me, Lucretia, am I anywhere close on this?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  That is so good, because when white people are showing vulnerability in terms of this transformation, like if something moved you, transformed you, you didn’t know or it’s like, “I thought I knew, and then I learned.  I thought I knew and then I learned, please come learn with me.”  Being, “I’m not racist,” isn’t good enough.  I’m not racist either, you see, what I’m saying?  I’m not racist either, but there are still racist systems in place.

So, we have to do this work of dismantling these systems, the outward systems and the systems inside.  We still have racist wiring in our brains.  And the whole, “I’m not racist,” it needs to be thrown out, like throw that out.  And what people need to say, “I’m becoming anti-racist,” or “I am on a journey,” or “I am on an anti racism journey,” because that means there’s a constant, like, peeling back the layers and questioning everything.

So, I’m just going to view it just simple.  You know, so when you really understand that there are systems and forces and influences in place and it’s not just, “Well, I’m a product of my heart or whatever, you know, or my morals.”  I know there are things that that are in place – forces and narratives and stories – that have shaped how we see ourselves in relation to how we see people who are not, maybe, in our same racial category and social economic class, all of that.

But when you understand that, then you can be an active part of changing the narrative or speaking up.  Like, for example, I know right now the focus is on the violence committed by police officers.  But I, as an educator, would dare to say that, you know, of course, the violence starts early on.  How much violence do we teach in American history that is approved violence against native peoples, you know?  Even violence against the British because, you know, Americans or the United States or the colonies wanted to be free.  Now, that is kind of an approved violence; they wanted liberation.

So, you know, we have to look at what we’ve been taught and what the stories are depositing, you know, in us and how these stories are shaping us.  We needed racial categories so that we can be okay with the violence against enslaved Africans.  Oh, but again, you know, we have holes in history.  So a part of that, you know, doing this work is committing to this journey so you begin to, like on a daily basis, you are challenging what you thought, what you know, you know, this whole neutrality of everything and you know, racial inequality is just normal.  And, you know, that’s not the case.  It’s all been very intentional.

Andrea:  So, Lucretia, you’re really an expert, especially with talking about race and anti-racism, this journey with children, and I’m looking forward to looking at your materials on that.  But how are you talking about the current issues in your own family right now?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Right.  So, again, the beauty of already being on the journey… and I just want to encourage everyone like, you know, racism is going to spew things at you.  You can pretend that that’s not the case, but I need people to see anti-racism literacy or anti-racism education is like parenting preparation.  Just like something else you would put in your toolkit, just like a parent would prepare themselves to be able to talk to their children about sex and things like that.

And anti-racism education and literacy is not an accusation that you’re racist or something like that.  It means that you understand where we are and the opportunities that we have to equip our children and ourselves to do better.  So, I say all that to say, in our family that is a multi-ethnic family, we went about addressing… first giving our children, of course, permission and normalizing conversations about skin tone because children see color, right?  I know people say children see race, but really because they don’t know the racial categories when they’re babies or when they’re little, they see that people are different colors or skin tones.

So, that’s how we talked about it in our family because talking about people specifically, or only I should say, only in racial categories would feel like our family was two parts or three parts of a whole and that’s not the case.  We are one whole; you know, our children have mom and a dad like everybody else, and so that’s how we chose to frame our conversation.  And actually, it was my daughter at four years old who said it.  She was like, “Mommy, you’re dark brown.  I’m medium brown. Daddy is light brown.”  And she is correct and we talked to her about melanin, and why Daddy’s ancestors had less melanin, why Mommy’s ancestors had more melanin.  Yeah, so we give them language, and we give them permission.

And so talking about what people look like is already normal.  So, there’s no discomfort there.  And then maybe about five or six, as they’re about to, you know, head out to kindergarten and to be out in the world more than they’re with me.  Then we explained race, how racial categories were constructed, and you know, people will put in this hierarchy and why historically.  And I know some people, you know, especially white people, think that that’s going to destroy their child or it’s taking away their innocence.  It is actually equipping your child, and you shouldn’t deprive them of the reality that we live in.  That’s what my TED Talk is about, actually.  So, if people want to listen to the TED Talk, you just google Lucretia Berry TED Talk, and I talk about that, how our Children Will Light Up the World If We Don’t Keep in the Dark.

Andrea:  Love that.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Thank you.  So, once they already understood race and the history of race, and yes, like they got upset, but that just means that they’re healthy because they should.  It means that they’re hardwired for love, so injustice pained them and it should.  I would be concerned if I told them that and they go, “Oh, okay,” and walk away.  Like, “Oh my gosh, we need to call somebody,” right?  But that’s okay, that is totally healthy.  And then as things come up on the news… and we don’t turn off our television, you know.  They know everything that is happening, and they watch me and my husband, you know, me and their dad talk about it.  Like we literally talk about it at the dinner table, we show our sorrow, they see that.  Like, it’s okay to be upset.

When they’re upset about certain things that happen at school, you know… they go to a school that is predominantly white and yeah, they know that their peers, their white peers, their parents aren’t having these conversations with them.  And they are not obligated to parent their peers, but they at least are way ahead in terms of understanding racial dynamics and in our world.

So, when they say something like… like one of my children, she was upset that there was only one brown boy in her class.  And she said, “That’s not fair.  There should be more brown boys in the class.”  And she’s our little outspoken one, and so I think she would probably go to school and stage a revolt.  But because it’s a normal conversation, I just explained to her about redlining and housing historically, and how people, schools, where they’re situated and depending on your neighborhood, and that’s who attends your school.  I said, “We can move someplace else in our city where the neighborhood or the community have more African-Americans or people of color or brown people,” I said, “then there’ll be lots have brown boys in the class.:  But she just said, “Oh, okay.”

She just needed that understanding, and then she was fine and went on about her day.  You see, children are not simply sponges, they are negotiating and meaning-making on a daily basis about everything.  And by seven years old, they have already observed how racial hierarchies work in the United States.  You might not hear them talking about it at your home, but that’s because you haven’t been talking about it at your home, and you haven’t given them language.  Oh, but when they go to school, they do.

Andrea:  Then they’ll get the language.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Well, they talk about it, and they don’t talk about it in healthy ways.

Andrea:  Right.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  So I have loved the school where my kids go to.  They have hired me as a consultant for the teachers.  And I get to go in and give the kids language, and then it’s amazing how the kids who have the language and understanding have healthier conversations.  And then I also teach a high school course on anti-racism literacy, it’s an elective.  And again, people have conversations with my students and they are blown away how they can articulate what has happened, what is happening, and how to create something better.

Andrea:  Lucretia, how can people connect with you in your work and actually, you know, have that be a part of their own journey in this process for themselves and their own families?

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  So, I have created… well, first of all, I would love to come everywhere and teach and talk to people.  But I’m a mom, I have smaller kids and so I’m staying put for now.  So until then, I created a… Brownicity has an online learning community.  And we just launched it in the fall, so it currently now has, I want to say, six or so courses in there.  We do the courses live so if you can attend live, you do.  If you can’t, it’s recorded, and then it’s just in there for when you can get to it.  It’s a membership, so currently, it’s $10 a month or you can pay $110 for the whole year.  But it’s for people who need ongoing support and who need the education.  We have… like, I teach there, we have guest teachers and authors.  It’s a great space for people who want to be on the journey.

And, so again, you enroll and it’s there for you.  Currently, we have a class – one of our starter classes – called What LIES Between Us.  So, we’re going to do that virtually live on Tuesday, June 16th through July 14th.  So, they can go on the website and all that information is there.  But you know, when people want resources from me, I put everything there.  The resource library is free; you don’t have to be a member to access the resource library.  If you want to do What LIES Between US study on your own, you can buy the guide book from Amazon.  And that resource library is free, but other than that, everything is in the online membership.  We have schools use it for professional development.  I just have created a space because I care about people’s learning journey, because I know it can be traumatizing.

Andrea:  It can be tough, for sure.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  Yeah, it’s traumatizing.

Andrea:  Anytime you look at what’s underneath of whatever we are and whoever we are and the way that we interact in the world… I mean, anytime you look underneath that it can be a little difficult.  So, thank you for providing that space, Lucretia for your voice of influence in the world, and for being here and helping us know as Voice of Influence listeners how to really respond in this moment of the world.  And we appreciate your voice of influence here today.

Dr. Lucretia Berry:  I am so honored to be here.  Thank you so much for inviting me.  Thank you for making this space available, and thank you for amplifying my voice and Brownicity’s voice

Andrea:   Hmm, absolutely.  And just so everybody knows, everything will be in the show notes.  So, any links or things that Lucretia mentioned, we’ll definitely have those there all in one spot if you would like to be checking that out.

So, thank you so much, Lucretia!

Dr. Lucretia Berry: Thank you!

Posted on

Deceptive Myths About the Abuse of Power (Part 1)

Episode 143

Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

My Voice of Influence colleague, Rosanne Moore, is back on the show to break down destructive myths surrounding coercive control and abuse of power.

We’ve broken fourteen myths into two groups that will be split between this episode and the next.

In this episode, Rosanne shares what the dynamics of abuse of power and coercive control, the importance of understanding the myths around abuse of power and coercive control, the truth behind the seven myths below.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

 

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

 

Transcript

Hey, hey!  It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.  Today, I have with me Rosanne Moore.  She is in the business with Voice of Influence.  She does a lot of incredible things, and we’ve had her on before where we’ve visited about your expertise, Rosanne.  We’re going to go a little bit deeper into that today.

And the reason why this particular topic is important is that the idea of having a voice is the foundation of what we do with Voice of Influence.  And when somebody comes across an abuse of power – in particular in their own lives – it takes their voice away.  It makes it very difficult for them to be able to have agency in their lives to make a difference and do the things that they want to do.

And so today, we’re going to start a two-episode series on the myths that are related to this abuse of power.

Andrea: So, Rosanne, thank you so much for being here again today on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Rosanne Moore:  That is my pleasure.  I’ve been looking forward to this.

Andrea:  So when we’re talking about this abuse of power, first of all, can you just sort of give us a summary overview of what the dynamics of abusive power would look like in a relationship or in any particular setting?

Rosanne Moore:  Well, my background is a domestic abuse situation.  I came into that with a lot of the common misconceptions about what was involved in domestic violence, domestic abuse.  And what I’ve learned is the dynamics of abuse and abusive power are not necessarily about violence, physical violence.  They’re about coercive control.  And that can take place in a church.  It can take place in a business.  It can take place in a marriage.  It can take place between parents and children, and it can happen in a totalitarian regime if you look at what happened in Nazi Germany, for instance, or other totalitarian governments, North Korea.

And so when you learn about the dynamics of coercive control, there are a lot of different applications for them. 

So I guess, when we’re talking about abuse in a home, there are broad applications for what coercive control can look like in relationships.

Andrea:  So, today, we’re going to be tackling it.  You and I worked really hard on… you kind of sharing with me a lot of information, and then we distilled this into a bunch of myths that people believe.  And why is it important that we understand the difference between myth and reality?

Rosanne Moore:  Because a big part of coercive control is able to take place because of people who are decent, good people who believe wrong things.   And so they reinforce the power of the abusive person without even realizing it just by believing things that are not true that make it very difficult for a person who is being abused to escape the power of the abuser.

Andrea:  So a voice of influence is somebody who cares about this.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah.

Andrea:  If you are listening to this podcast, you’re somebody who cares, and you want the people that you lead, you want the people that you work with, you want the people that have any kind of influence on to have a voice.  You want them to feel empowered and be able to make a difference in their own lives and in the realms of their influence.

And so the reason why we’re tackling this today is because we believe that it is fundamental.  It is absolutely imperative that voices of influence have a very clear understanding of what is myth and what is reality when it comes to these dynamics of coercive control as Rosanne was saying.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.  And in any business or any group, it’s just important to know that a large percentage of the people that you’re dealing with, people in society have experienced some level of abuse at some point in their lives.  They may be currently in it.  It may have happened to them earlier, and it has long-term impact for them.

So, being aware of that and understanding the dynamics and the things that you can do to help a person recover their voice and bring all of who they are, and all of their gifts, and all the things that they learned; because people who come out of abusive situations are survivors, and they have a lot of gifts to offer.  And so understanding that and being able to help utilize their gifts and help them in the process of recovery is really valuable.

Andrea:  All right.  Now, we also want you to know that Rosanne has compiled a list of resources that, in particular, would be beneficial to a woman who is leaving an abusive relationship.  Is that right, Rosanne?

 

Rosanne Moore:  It is.  And because my experience, and the domestic abuse situation, in general, tends to be disproportionately applicable to women, that’s what we’re going focus on.  I do want to acknowledge from the outset that there are relationships where the woman is the abuser, and the man is the one who’s being victimized.  The dynamics of that are slightly different, and so I want to acknowledge that and the reality of that and the pain of that.

But I do want to say that today, the pronouns that we’re going to use are, you know, female pronouns for the victim and male pronouns for the perpetrator simply because that’s the most common in a domestic violence situation between intimate partners.  That can be different when there are parents and children involved.

But that’s what we’re going to be looking at today.  And the list of resources that we have, while it is primarily targeted toward women in abusive situations, there are going to be really good resources that will be applicable to anybody who’s coming out of some form of abuse.

Andrea:  So if you would like to download that list of resources, please, we encourage you to do so.  If you know somebody that needs them or if you need them… and if you know somebody that needs to hear this podcast episode, we want this to be a resource that is available to you and this list of resources to be available for further help.  And so, you can get that list of resources by texting to the number 44222, text the letters VOI – that’s for Voice of Influence – VOILIFELINE.  So you’re texting VOILIFELINE to the number 44222, and you can download that list of resources.  And we will also have it available at voiceofinfluence.net/lifeline.

All right, and then I want to also mention too that Rosanne is working on a very helpful course that would be not just a list of resources, but it is something that we will talk about a little bit more here at the end.  But I wanna just let you know that there is a very affordable course that is coming that could really help women who are just coming out of an abusive relationship.

Okay, Rosanne, let’s start sharing these myths that have to do with coercive control and the way that people kind of look at it.  So, today, we’ll share seven of them and then we will share seven more in the next episode.  Okay, so, first of all, the first myth that we identified was that, “People get targeted for abuse because they are weak or gullible.”

Rosanne Moore:  Right.

Andrea:  Rosanne, why is this not true?

Rosanne Moore:  You have to understand that an abuser is looking to make themselves large by breaking down someone else.  There’s no great thrill in destroying someone who is already destroyed.  Actually, what researchers have found is that abusers target people who have strength that they admire.  They are looking to dominate and to break down someone who is strong, who is independent.  For women in particular, the qualities that they look for is somebody who is kind, empathetic, and interesting.

So, essentially, it’s the very strength that a person has that makes them a target.  It’s not weakness; it’s strength.  And that’s true for cults.  I’ve done some research around cults because while there are people who just take pleasure in doing evil, period, you know – so they don’t really care who the target is, they just enjoy doing evil – most abusers get something out of the fight, out of destroying someone who is resistant to their domination, which means they have to have the strength to resist.

Andrea:  All right, so don’t believe the myth that people get targeted for abuse just because they’re weak or gullible.  So whether you’re the person that is in the situation where you’re being taken advantage of or abused, or if you are just society at large thinking about people, hearing stories, just don’t believe that myth.

Okay, so, number two; “If you are impacted by trauma, you are weak.”  First of all, what do you mean by that, Rosanne, and then explain why that’s not true.

Rosanne Moore:  Right.  So when people are impacted by trauma, often those who are seeing them afterward are thinking, “Well, why did they respond that way?  Why didn’t they just do x, y, z?”  They should have just been able to see that the person was lying.”  They should have just been able to fight back in this particular way that the healthy person sees as a rational response.  What people fail to understand is trauma changes the brain.

A domestic abuse victim responds very much the way a POW does.  And now you stop and think about that.  A military prisoner of war has been trained for battle.  They’ve been trained to prepare for the possibility of being captured.  And yet the impact of trauma on the brain, on the body means that they typically respond in some very predictable ways.  The trauma is designed to break down the brain of the other person, the rational thought processes of another person.

We are made for healthy relationships.  We are not made to live closely with people who are trying to do us constant harm.  And so women who are in abusive relationships are basically in a hostage situation.  Whereas in a prisoner of war situation, you went into it knowing who the enemy was; in an intimate abuse situation, you went into it believing this was a person who loved you most and was going to be most for you in your life, and yet they’re actually out to destroy you.

And so it’s very common for people to misunderstand the response of somebody who has been injured by trauma and say, “Why don’t they just…” and you can fill in that blank many, many ways, when in fact the person is behaving in ways that are typical of someone who has been deeply traumatized.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Okay, and we talk about trauma again, I think, later and maybe even in the next episode, Rosanne.  But I think just the understanding that trauma changes you and it makes it difficult for you to think and rationally is so important, especially around anything that’s triggering.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.  And you can’t just muscle your way out of it, and you can’t just rise above it in the midst of it.  There’s a level at which healing can’t really come until you’re outside of the thing that is harming you.  You can survive it.  There are many, many people who survive horrifically traumatic situations and they managed to, you know, pull out the strength that they need to survive that situation.  But for them to really be restored to health, they need to get outside of the traumatic situation – not still be under assault – to begin the healing process.

Andrea:  All right, number three; “If it’s really that bad then you could just leave, right?”  Rosanne, why is that not necessarily true?  And we’re not just talking about, you know, intimate partner relationships right now.  This definitely applies in many different situations.  So why is it not so easy to leave?

Rosanne Moore:  Well, in a marriage, you have legal things holding you into the marriage, for one thing.  It doesn’t usually become apparent what’s happening.  One of the things about abuse that people misunderstand is when you’re in a coercive control relationship, the abused person frequently doesn’t know they’re being abused.  They just know that something’s not right.  And so their go-to usually is, “What is it about me that I need to change for this situation to change?”  Which in general, if you think about it, is a healthy thing, you know.  The thing that you have the most control over usually is yourself.

And so it’s a healthy reality for a person to want to look at their own part and their own ability to change.  The problem in a coercive control situation, the victim is not the problem, and so no amount of change on their part is going to change the dynamic of the situation.  In general, though, there are many things; there are financial concerns, there are legal things that bind a person into a relationship, there are practical things like housing if you’re in a marriage. And a person who is abusing through coercive control systematically undermines the support system of their target.  And so they are removing options at every turn, so just leaving isn’t simple.

In an employment situation, a person can’t just leave.  I mean, they have to live, they have to have a job.  When we look at what happened with Larry Nassar in targeting elite athletes, in order for them to compete for the Olympics or for these top things for which they were training, they were in the midst of a system that was in itself abusive.  And it wasn’t just Nassar; it was the whole way that the Olympic committee was set up the way that they protected abusive coaches, et cetera.  And so just leaving is not simple.

For women who have children, just leaving doesn’t get their children out.   When you have a person who is physically violent, just leaving can escalate the violence and can end up getting you killed.  And so there has to be a recognition that leaving is a complicated process, and there are a lot of pieces to it.  It doesn’t mean that you can’t, but it means that instead of just assuming, “If it’s really bad, you could just leave…”  That’s not reality.

Again, back to the POW thing, “Why don’t POWs just leave?”  There are a lot of answers to that question and none of them are simply within the power of the person being victimized.  There’s need for outside help.

Andrea:  All right, so myth number four; “You really need to stick with it.  Be loyal.  You need to stick with it because for the greater good.”

Rosanne Moore:  For the greater good, yeah.  In the context of marriage, people are told, you know, “Our society is breaking down because of divorce and you made a promise,” and in some cases it’s, you know, “You made a promise before God, and you need to stick with it.”  If you are dealing with a coercive control situation, you are dealing with someone who is systematically seeking to do harm.  There is no greater good that is being served by protecting an abusive person.

People say that… you know, they try to silence a victim because they don’t want to have to deal with the discomfort.  They don’t know what to do with it.  And they don’t want to have to deal with the discomfort of finding out the truth and finding out that the world isn’t as neat and tidy as they’d like to believe it is, and it’s wrong.  What they’re essentially saying when they say that for the greater good is they’re saying, “My comfort in avoiding this is more important than the fact that you are at risk and you are being sacrificed.”

Andrea:  And how do you see that playing out?  I know that sometimes it has to do with maybe parents who feel shame about the fact that maybe their child is now getting a divorce, or people in a church or a religious environment where they don’t like the fact that somebody is actually thinking that they need to leave. “No, you need to stay.”  And why is that so important to people?  I mean, it’s comfort on one hand, but what else?  What else is that?

Rosanne Moore:  Well, I think we have to go back to what is true.  Does truth matter?  If the truth of the relationship is you’ve got somebody who is seeking to do harm, then to try to silence the person who is asking for help is enabling evil.  And I think part of the time, what happens is people don’t understand the dynamics of what’s taking place.  There are things, in a church setting that are said like, “You know, you’re harming the name or the reputation of Christ,” for instance, if a victim of sexual abuse comes forward and names a leader in the church or even just somebody who’s prominent in the church.  People don’t want to hear that, and they’ll frequently say, “You’re hurting the church.  You’re hurting the name of Christ.”

So there’s this idea that if the victim is silent, it’s going to serve the greater good of the community.  But the whistleblower is actually serving the greater good because they’re exposing what will be detrimental to the health of the whole.  And that’s true whether it’s domestic violence or whether it’s in a corporate setting, somebody who discloses wrongful practices, whatever.  We need to honor the whistleblowers instead of being so invested in our own desire for the boat not to be rocked that we’re willing to go along with things that are ultimately going to be damaging to the whole of the group, the wellbeing of the group in the long term.

Andrea:  And I think too, it’s easy to think that this could be about one person.  If you do have a situation where maybe it is a leader of a group of people, that leader might be abusive and there might be people in the group that see all the good that that person does and they say, “But look at all the good that they’re doing.  Yes, there’s maybe a few things that aren’t great, but we need, you know, to move past that and whatever, and stay loyal, and look at all the good,” and that sort of thing.  And I think that also is a part of what this means to be loyal, what people think that they need to be loyal to the leader.

Rosanne Moore:  And so my question for that person was, “If it were your child that had been harmed by that leader, would you feel the same way?  If you were the one who had been assaulted by that leader, would that still be your position?”  No, probably not; very likely not.  Now that does happen sometimes where a parent will silence a child because they don’t want to upset things.  But you’re essentially saying that one person is the sacrificial lamb because this other person has done good things.

What people need to realize is abusive people often do good things in order to allow them the credibility to continue to harm others.  That’s very common.  That’s part of the lie that is being presented.  And so, that’s not an anomaly.  That’s part of the dynamic that takes place.

Andrea:  All right.  So I’m going to move to the next thing then.

Rosanne Moore:  Okay.

Andrea:   All right.  So for five, six, and seven here we’re going to talk about some of the myths that are around forgiveness in particular.  As we’re looking at forgiveness, it became really evident that we needed to separate these three because there’s a lot of confusion around forgiveness.  So, Rosanne, we’re going to start with number five that, “Forgiveness equals reconciliation.”  So, forgiveness means that I need to bring this person back into my life.  Why is this not right?

Rosanne Moore:  There’s no basis for that.  Reconciliation requires that the person be safe, be healthy, that there be change.  You can forgive someone.  You can release them to God.  You can determine you are no longer going to carry the weight of their offense and the bitterness toward them anymore.  But that is not the same, and often people who push forgiveness do so in the name of God.  There is no biblical basis for forgiveness without repentance and even if there’s repentance…

Andrea:  And repentance is essentially change, right?  It’s an actual change.

Rosanne Moore:  Exactly.  It’s actual change.  And so what often happens is there’s a demand for immediate forgiveness and immediate reconciliation.  Abusers use this in a big way.  You will often see abusive people who make a quick confession.  When they’re actually caught and they can’t deny it anymore, they make a quick confession and then they immediately push for reinstatement of relationship.  And what they’re really after is number one, no consequences and number two, the opportunity to re-offend.

And so, it’s very important not to push reconciliation that is premature.  When a person has had their trust deeply violated, they need to be the one who determines if and when reconciliation is ever possible or appropriate.  That’s not to say that they can’t forgive.  They can, but that doesn’t mean that reconciliation is necessarily a good thing.  It could actually be a harmful thing.

Andrea:  So, essentially even if they forgive, they still don’t have to be in a relationship with somebody who’s not safe.

Rosanne Moore:  Right, and to pressure that… especially since the person who has been wronged has more intimate knowledge than outsiders do of exactly how that wrong took place.  If a person is resistant to being reconciled, other people should not press for that because instead of just assuming that they’re just hard and bitter and unforgiving, there needs to be a recognition, “No, this person intimately knows what went into drawing in their trust in the past, and so they’re going to be the first to know whether or not that dynamic is still at play.”

Andrea:  Hmm exactly.  Okay, number six; “Forgiveness can happen instantly.”

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah, that’s not real.  In order to genuinely forgive, you have to grapple deeply with what was lost.  You know, if the offense is small, then you can forgive relatively quickly.  But when you’re talking about coercive control, you’re talking about systematic breaking down of another person and there’s an ongoing assault; it’s not a onetime offense.  And so for forgiveness to be real, a person has to grieve what has been taken from them, and they have to look at the implications for their life of what was lost and the long-term impact of what was lost.  You can make an immediate choice to commit to the process of forgiveness, but forgiveness is a process.

I know there were times when people would ask how we were doing, and I would talk about things that my children were going through on an ongoing basis, in terms of the impact of the abuse that we suffered.  And it didn’t take very long; people would get start to get uncomfortable, particularly if I showed any heat at all over what was happening to my kids.

Andrea:  You mean your personal anger, or what do you mean by “heat”?

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.  That if there was any kind of emotional reaction or anger expressed over what was happening to my children, people would shift into, “Well, you know, you gotta forgive.”  And my response to that was, “I am committed to the process of forgiving.  I am also committed to justice for my children.”  And anger is part of that.  There are things that people do that we should be angered by.  They’re just wrong.  They’re harmful.  They do tremendous damage, and if you’re not outraged when you hear about somebody’s voice being taken away in injustice, somebody being harmed, an innocent person being harmed, there’s something wrong.  Anger should be a part of our response.

Now, it should not be the controlling response that we have.  Committing to the process of forgiveness recognizes that this is an ongoing thing.  And if you’re in a relationship with an abusive person, there’s ongoing assault.  So even after I left, because my children still had contact, there was ongoing injury that was happening.  And so, there in particular, forgiveness had to be a process that I committed to, but it was not a switch that I could flip.

Andrea:  Mhmm, I think that that is super important, super important for people to understand that it’s not instantaneous and it’s not simple.  Okay, and finally for today, Rosanne, number seven; “Forgiveness negates any need for consequences.”  “Hey, I’ve forgiven them.”  “So you need to just move on.  You’ve forgiven them, so just move on.”  Why is this not true?

Rosanne Moore:  Because if the person is dangerous, the rest of society needs to be protected from them, honestly.  I mean, that’s the bottom line.  And there are consequences to our choices.   Forgiveness says, “I am not going to carry the bitterness of your action with me any longer.”  It does not mean that there aren’t consequences for your choices.

Rachel Denhollander gave a beautiful victim impact statement speech in which she addressed both the need for forgiveness – she offered forgiveness to her abuser at the same time she was calling for justice and that she had made great personal sacrifice to seek legal justice and to make sure that he couldn’t harm other people and that he faced the consequences for what he had done.

Andrea:  He being Larry Nassar?

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah.  And so the idea that if someone physically assaults me that pressing charges is unforgiving is wrong.  If somebody crosses that line, they need to face the consequences for that.  If someone embezzles from a company, they need to face the consequences for that.  There needs to be accountability that’s given because it’s not just a wrong against the individual.  There’s also a social wrong that has to be addressed as well and protection for the innocent in the future.

Andrea:  I think that another way to look at that too is that when we don’t have consequences for behavior like this, this behavior becomes normalized.

Rosanne Moore:  Yes.

Andrea:  We’re saying in effect, “This is okay, this is normal.  We should just move on.”  And then it just escalates.  It continues to become part of the culture, and it escalates.

Rosanne Moore:  Yeah.  A good picture of that is the fact that most sexual assault crimes are not ever prosecuted.  Very few sexual offenders ever face any kind of consequence for the behavior.  And if you look at our culture, it’s rampant.  I mean, there are all kinds of sexual abuse that’s just rampant.  Sex trafficking in our country, there’s so many ways in which it’s just exploded.  And part of the reason for that is there are no consequences.  The consequences are for the victim who seeks justice rather than for the perpetrator.

Andrea:  And why do you say that?

Rosanne Moore:  I’ve walked closely with several friends who have sought justice through the legal system.  And what they were put through in order to bring it to light where they had to be retraumatized again and again in the process of telling their story, and proving it, and being treated as if they were lying… and they were just revictimized on so many levels, only to have the person come to a hearing where they simply got a slap on the wrist, where they had no significant sentencing.  It was just unbelievable to watch.

So, they paid the price of the original wrong.  I mean, they carried the wrong.  They still carry the impact of the wrong that was done against them.  They courageously tried to stop evil at the sacrifice of themselves only to have the system do nothing in response, which emboldens, of course, the abuser.  Yeah, it’s a terrible thing when you watch something like that happen.

Andrea:  It certainly is.  And I think that that is why it is so important that more and more voices rise up to help embolden the ones that need to be heard.  And Rosanne, I know that that is your heart here today.  It is our heart, collectively, at Voice of Influence as we have been working on this Lifeline course.  Can you tell the listener just a little bit about that so that they have an idea of what is coming… or perhaps by the time they listen to this, it may already be out.  But tell us a little bit about that Lifeline course that you’ve been working on.

Rosanne Moore:  In order for a woman to leave an abusive relationship, she has to leave in her mind first and there has to be a pathway for her to leave.  Again, you know, it’s not as simple as, “If it’s really that bad, you’d just leave.”  There have to be things in place; otherwise, she can actually escalate the danger.  I’ve walked closely with a number of women who have been through this process.  I’ve been through it myself, and so one of the hardest parts is trying to do something like that while you’re unraveling the impact of trauma yourself.

And so I wanted to provide a resource that would help women to make decisions step by step.  Not tell them what to do, but help give them parameters to think through their specific situation, understand some of the situation they’re stepping into as they go into the court system.  There are some really good resources, and they will be on the resource list about how to deal with the psychological impact of things.  Our course is going to focus more on the very practical things.  How do you get out?  On a practical level, what steps do you have to take?  What pieces need to be in place to get out and to minimize the risk as much as possible?  And that’s what our course is going to be.

Andrea:  Okay, so, again, if you are interested in either/or, the download… it’s just a free download.  It’s a list of resources that you can use right away, or you can offer to somebody else right away.  You can get that by texting the letters VOILIFELINE to the number 4422 and at voiceofinfluence.net/lifeline.  That is where you can find that as well, and it’s also where you can find out some more information about the Lifeline course.

For the price of a book, you can purchase this course and be able to have what you need at least to get going, and to have a friend, a guide who has been there before and has guided others along this path.  We don’t claim to have all the answers.  We don’t claim to have all of the information.  What we do claim to do is to provide some guidance and help you come to some clarity for yourself so that you know how to move forward and how to proceed.

Rosanne, thank you so much for today, and I look forward to sharing more of these myths and debunking these myths again here in the next episode.

Rosanne Moore:  Thank you so much, Andrea.

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Mentoring Leaders at Church and in Business with Natasha Sistrunk Robinson

Episode 142

Natasha Sistrunk Robinson

Natasha Sistrunk Robinson is the President of T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc., where she provides customized executive leadership coaching, consulting, and mentoring services.

Natasha is an author and sought-after international speaker with more than 20 years of leadership experience in the military, federal government, academic, and nonprofit sectors.  She is the Visionary Founder of the nonprofit, Leadership LINKS, Inc. and the Host of A Sojouner’s Truth podcast.

In this episode, Natasha and I discuss her expertise in mentorship in the context of church, gender, and racial and ethnic diversity.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

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Transcript

 People of influence know that their voice matters and that they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and this is the Voice of Influence podcast.

Today, I’m speaking with Natasha Sistrunk Robinson, who is president of T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc. where she provides customized executive leadership coaching, consulting, and mentoring services.  She is an author and sought-after international speaker with more than twenty years of leadership experience in military, federal government, academic, and nonprofit sectors.  She is the visionary founder of the nonprofit Leadership LINKS and host of “A Sojourner’s Truth” podcast.

Today, Natasha and I visit about her particular expertise and mentorship.  And we talk about it in light of and in a context of church, in a context of gender, and in a context of racial and ethnic diversity.  I think that you’re going to get a lot out of this conversation with Natasha.

Andrea:  All right, Natasha, it is great to have you with us on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Thank you so much for having me.  I really appreciate it.

Andrea:  Would you tell us a little bit about your business, and ministry, and just kind of what you do?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Sure.  So, I’m Natasha Sistrunk Robinson.  I have my hands in a few things, actually, but I’m a small business owner.  So, I’m an entrepreneur, and I do that work of leadership consulting, leadership executive coaching and mentoring through my business T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc.  And then as far as ministry, I am an author.  I write books.  I write Bible study.  So that also means I go out and do quite a bit of speaking, teaching, training, facilitating around mostly faith, leadership, mentorship, and some reconciliation on cultural awareness, cultural competence, and diversity type things as it relates to justice.  And so that’s what I do for writing in ministry and I have a nonprofit, Leadership LINKS, where we do a lot of similar work as far as raising up the next generation of leaders.

Andrea:  And how did things kind of get started for you?  You have a background in the military, is that right?

Natasha S. Robinson:   Sure.  Yeah.  I graduated from Naval Academy in 2002.  And then I was commissioned as an officer in the United States Marine Corps.  So, I was actually a financial management officer, and I did that for six years.  And then I went to work at Department of Homeland Security, where I continue some similar work as far as financial management in the Science and Technology Directorate.  So, I was actually in the International Corporate Programs Office.

And so we did a lot of interagency, international agreements, a lot of grants, government contract, and that’s a lot of the work that I did for that agency.  Then I went to seminary, and that took me down a different path of ministry and writing and things, and that’s kind of how we got to where we are now.

Andrea:  Okay.  So, I also took a very strange path from teaching to seminary and then where I’m at now too.  So, I’m curious, why did you make that particular jump to seminary?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think, you know, just my faith – I love the word of God, but I also love connecting with people.  And so I’ve always been like a Bible teacher, like a small group leader in my home and the church.  And so I was doing that even though I was working a full-time job; it’s like my second job, and if you count family, like your third job.  And so, you know, when I went to go to seminary, my desire was just to become a better Bible teacher.

So, I literally was going to go to seminary, and then go back to leading small group and Bible study in my home ‘cause I was very content with that.  But while I was in seminary, God started stirring my heart to write.  And so, I started writing articles.  I started publishing then and by the time I got to the end of seminary, I had developed a manuscript for my first book, which was on mentoring as intentional discipleship.

 Andrea:  And now you’re doing a doctorate degree, is that right?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, I am.  So, I’m in a doctorate program – it’s a cohort between North Park Theological Seminary and Fuller, and it’s a doctorate of ministry in Urban Ministry Leadership.  And so I’m about halfway through the coursework of that, and then, of course, next year, if all goes well, I’ll be starting my project in dissertation work.

Andrea:  Awesome!  And do you have a specific kind of focus for that?  Why that in particular?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  So, I’m trying to figure… as far as the focus, I’m trying to figure that out.  Normally, people decide before they go; I didn’t.  I primarily decided to go with this program because of the person I got to study under.  So, my academic advisor is Dr. Soong-Chan Rah.  He’s a Korean-American, used to be a pastor but now he spent of his more recent years in the academy.  And so I selected the program – and this kind of answers your question about why – because of who I got to study under.  I wanted to read more broadly and wanted to hear from a lot of diverse voices, not just within America but also globally.  And he has the depth of experience, exposure, and education to offer me that that I wasn’t going to continue to read the same people that I read in my master’s program.  And so I’m really thankful that I chose to study under him.

Andrea:  Have you made a lot of decisions in your life based on who would be mentoring you?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Certainly early on.  In the military, for sure, and when I took my second job at Department of Homeland Security, that decision was based on the person that would be my supervisor.  She was a Hispanic lady.  She was a Christian.  She was a graduate of the Naval Academy.  She graduated in the second class of women.  She’s a retired Navy commander and she was in higher ranks of government officials.

I had other job offers with other great companies, but I thought I could learn a lot from her and I wanted to learn a lot from her so that’s what the decision I made, so certainly in my professional life.  Ministry, though, has been a lot different because – and this has been a kind of a tension for my leadership… whereas, you know, being in the military, you have a clear path for mentorship.  You have a path for promotion.  You have a path for career progression and development in your own field, your professional field, and I knew exactly what that was.  But coming into ministry, not having that set out as a goal or a plan for my life, I really felt like I didn’t have leaders or mentors to help guide me for where the Lord was leading me.

And so, a lot of that was really dependent on asking the Lord what He had for me.  And I think the challenge and tension of that has been I’ve always been a leader, and sometimes serving in capacities where, you know, you can’t lead or you’re not allowed to lead because you’re a woman or because you’re a person of color.  And they may or may not say that, but at the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to.  So that’s been a struggle and a exercise in humility and wisdom and discipline about how can you live fully into your calling and out of your identity, even when your environment or the places where the people you’re interacting with don’t share the same values.

Andrea:  Okay, you just asked a really great question I’d love for you to answer.  How can you live fully and into the fullness of who you are when you’re being constrained?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think one thing I’m learning and I’m always learning – and the irony, I think, sometimes when you’re a leader or you’re good at something, you think you got a lesson.  Like, “I got that, I understand that,” and then there are times when you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I did not really act out on what I know.”  And so I think for me – and it’s a journey so it’s not even completed – but it’s really about being clear about who I am and what God has called me to, and then, you know, really being… I remember one of my mentors said to me, “God is your sponsor.”

And so, really being open to the doors that God opens for me and walking through them confidently, and then when doors are closed to just say, “Well, that wasn’t for me,” or “At least it wasn’t for me in this time.”  And that doesn’t mean sometimes you don’t need to kick doors down because I think you need to do that too when it’s appropriate.  But for me, that’s a process of discernment, and getting wise counsel from people who know me well and people who are actually for me.

And I would say this too; it’s also been just the confidence in the security of that knowing then fueling the decisions I make.  So, there are times when I’ve quit jobs.  I’ve walked away from opportunities.  I’ve walked away from, you know, certain institutions or institutionalism because they weren’t serving the calling that God had on my life.  And so that has been a part of my journey and path as well.

Andrea:  Is it hard to make those decisions, it’s hard to discern when to knock down a door and when to just keep knocking?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, absolutely it is.  And then, you know, I think we need to ask like, “God, what is my role?  What are you calling me to in this season?”  And then sometimes I go and I fight for stuff, and then sometimes I’m silent, you know, honestly.  And I don’t think you should do either if it’s going to result in sin or disobedience.  But I think sometimes that you do the right thing at the wrong time or you do the right thing in the wrong way, and you don’t actually get the results that you want.  And so that also is a spirit of discernment of, “Okay, God, not only am I going to be in this space, not only am I going to have a seat at the table, not only am I going to use my voice, but how do you want me to do those things?”  Even that needs to be steward.

Andrea:  Yeah, you know, something that I’ve said a lot is voice equals choice.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Mm hmm.

Andrea:  You just need to choose wisely, but that’s a hard thing when you feel like your voice is being suppressed or repressed or pushed down, and it’s not something that you have control over.  It is hard to feel like you do have a choice, and so you just really want to get it out sometimes.  What would you say to somebody who’s just like, “I just want to be able to say what I want to say?”

Natasha S. Robinson:  Well, I think, honestly, I think that’s more of a challenge for women too, because I think sometimes men speak and they don’t have anything to say.  And they speak very confidently when they don’t have anything to say in the same way that men will apply for jobs that they’re aren’t technically qualified for.  And because they take the risk to bet on themselves and apply, they might get the job; and in that job, they may learn new skills and everything.

You know, I’ve been spending a lot of time in the last few years reading, you know, through the Exodus and Moses narrative, and remembering when God called Moses at the burning bush.  And you know, the first thing that Moses says, “Well, you know, I can’t talk,” right?  And so he starts making all these excuses for why he can’t do what God calls him to do, and what God says to him is that, “I’m gonna be with you.  I’m gonna teach you what to say and provide what you need.”

And so, I think for women, we’ve been conditioned and socialized into thinking that we have to have it all together.  We have to be perfect.  We have to be right.  We have to be ready when we show up for something.  And sometimes what God is just looking for is a yes, and availability, and understanding that in the process of saying yes that the journey is where we are actually learning.  And our leadership is being formed for us to be ready for that thing that God has for us ten years, twenty years down the road that we can’t even see or don’t even know about.

And so we think it’s about this one job, this one opportunity, or this one relationship.  And God is going to use that job, relationship, opportunity to prepare you for whatever, the next thing.  But if you don’t say yes, you know, your knees trembling to the thing that’s right in front of you, you’re never going to get the preparation and the training that you need to prepare you for the thing the Lord sees way down the road.

Andrea:  Hmm, I love that.   The temptation to say no in those situations because you don’t feel ready is strong for a lot of people.  I think you’re right.  So, women need to bet more on themselves, huh?

Natasha S. Robinson:  I think women need to get clear about who we are and love that person, and lead out of that authenticity.  So that means when we’re entering into places where people don’t validate that, then we have a choice; and to your point, voice is choice.  You have a choice of whether you’re going to stay or whether you’re going to go.  You have a choice of whether you’re going to be a reformer within a system, or you’re going to go build a separate system or table.  You have a choice of whether this is a relationship that you’re going to stay in or not.

And so, I think that relates to everything from who you decide to marry, to what friends you keep in your circle, to what school you go to or what training you get to what career field you pursue, to what church you become a member of.  I think all those things really are birthed out of how we see ourselves second, how we see God first.

And how we see ourselves a lot of times is tainted by projections that other people have placed on us and not from a place of first saying, “How does God see me?”  Because God created each of us uniquely, and that means that even the flaws and the weaknesses that we have that God can use for good, He absolutely can.  And so, we don’t use those things to disqualify ourselves or to discredit our being.  It may mean that we need some training and some development, but it doesn’t disqualify us, you know, and so I think that once we get clarity about those things then that shapes the other things.

Andrea:  Okay.  Talk to me about mentorship.  You talk about this quite a bit and have written about it quite a bit.  There’s a quote from…I’m not sure where your quote is from, but I have a quote.  “Mentoring is a trusted partnership where people share wisdom that fosters spiritual growth and leads to transformation as mentors and mentees grow in their love of Christ, knowledge of self, and love of others.”  Why is mentoring a big deal to you?

Natasha S, Robinson:  Yeah, so that’s a quote from my book, Mentor for Life, and I’m talking about mentoring there specifically as intentional discipleship.  So, I am talking about mentoring from a Christian framework.  And I say that it’s important because not all mentoring we do is from that framework.  And I do, you know, mentoring in very diverse environments just because of the nature of my professional experience and background, and my work.

So, it’s important for a few reasons.  Number one, I think mentoring is critically important for leadership development.  And so, the way I was trained at the Naval Academy, for example, like, mentoring was built into our professional development program.  I mean, just nobody graduated from the Naval Academy without having been mentored or mentoring someone, and it was built into the system.  And then, I think, you still see that – sometimes formally, sometimes informally – in the military.

And I think, you know, that’s one of the reasons the military gets the results that it gets because of the ways that we by and large are very intentional in how we develop leaders.  So, it’s not just about influence and platforms; it’s about actually how you connect with people, how you motivate, and what you actually get done to it.  Are you actually able to accomplish a mission?  And so that’s just ingrained in me early in my very formative years.  Not just as a child, but certainly again, the Naval Academy played a significant role in that.

And so, I think the interesting thing for me was when I transitioned or pivoted right from more of professional work as my full-time focus to ministry work as my full-time focus, and seeing that – you know, especially in a church, for example, a local church – a lot of the issues that people were having, in my observation, were leadership issues.  They were a lack of leadership and so if the leadership was better being then the environment, the culture of the community or the church would be better, and therefore the mission would go forth and we would be more effective in our work.

And so, I started to write about it because in a Christian environment, I thought, “Wow!”  Well, part of the reason the leadership is so poor is number one, let’s be honest, pastors don’t get leadership training in seminary.

Andrea:  That’s true.

Natasha S. Robinson:  You can have a great pastor who can execute a passage and can understand original languages and can be a great preacher, and that does not mean they’re a great shepherd.  It does not mean that they can be a great executive.  It doesn’t mean that they know how to motivate their team, or cast vision, or hold people accountable.  There are all kinds of critical leadership skills that pastors don’t get in seminary.  And so if they’re not getting it in seminary, I think you have to ask the question, where are they getting it?  And the answer is, they’re not getting it, which is why we have so much leadership challenges.  So that’s number one.

But I think the other issue – because that’s a top-down issue – our bottom-up issue is we falter because we allow people in the church to volunteer, and then we don’t provide them any training.  And then we wonder why the ministries are not as effective as they could be, or they’re a mess.  Or their relationships are not as healthy or honoring to the things we say we believe in the word because we have not provided leadership training, development, mentorship even for our volunteers.  So, you can volunteer on Saturday and be leading something on Monday next week, all right?

Whereas my posture would be, “Okay, you’re volunteering, that’s great.  Let’s see about whether or not you have the temperament to do the thing that your heart desires to do, because maybe you might be a better fit over here.  And then what skills do you have and what are the gaps over here that you could possibly lead, and then what training and mentoring that needs to be provided so you can do this well?  Because I want you to be confident in it.  I want you to know that this is the right place for you in this season, that is a mutually beneficial experience, and that the people under you are thriving.”  And they won’t do that if the leaders aren’t trained, if they aren’t healthy, and if they don’t know how to maintain healthy relationships.  They just won’t.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Do you have any suggestions about how organizations – whether it be a church or a company – could better incorporate mentorship into their culture?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, so the thing is that, you know, we think about this as an add-on thing.  And so then the question or the statement becomes… pre, you know, our current pandemic situation was we don’t have time.  Well, you know, my belief is that prayer, I think is the first foundation, and then the second foundation is how well you are training and equipping your leaders.  Because if you do that well, then what I believe the Bible calls us to is really multiplication, and that happens when people are on mission.

And this is what Paul writes about in Ephesians 4, that some people are apostles and some are teachers.  You know, they’ll have the gift of helps, all these things, but they’re doing it for the edification of the body.  And so, I want every believer to be clear about, not just who they are, their identity, their being in Christ, but also what God has called them to.  Obviously, our first calling is to be a disciple, a student, a follower of Jesus.  So not just that we believe Jesus, we have a relationship with Jesus, it’s not just that Jesus is our Savior, but does Jesus have authority to guide the direction and priorities in my life?  That’s the first answer that we have to make, and then once we do that then say, “Okay, if that answer is yes, then what work specifically has God called me to?”

Again, so, some people would be teachers and some would be hospitable, you know, have the gift of  helps, and some people are healing, and some people will, you know, be evangelists.  So, there are all these different roles we play.  And Paul gives a metaphor of the body in 1st Corinthians 12, right?  That we all have different gifts, but it’s the same spirit and the same calling.  And those gifts should be operating together, just like a healthy body that if I bump my toe and I pull the toenail back too far, I’m going to feel that – my whole body is going to feel that because it’s hurt or it’s weak.

But in the same way, if I’m eating well and I’m drinking water, I’m getting enough sleep and my body… I’m working out, and I’m strong then I feel I have the energy and I feel like I can do anything.  The longer version, the short of it is mentoring cannot be, “We’ll do it when we get around to it,” and it’s a one-time program or event.  It has to be a part of the system in how we do things day-to-day in our operations in church, and it has to be at the foundation of it.

Andrea:  Now, you said that you also do work in diversity.  And so I’m curious, when people are trying to or an organization is trying to incorporate mentoring better into their culture, as you’ve described, could you also share with us some key points that you would feel are really important when it comes to honoring the voices of others and being an ally to other folks who are different than us and that sort of thing?  Could you share with us some of your thoughts on that?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think Paul gave us a good analogy there too, right?  You know, the hand can’t say to eye, “I don’t need you,” you know, or the foot can’t say to the arm like, “I don’t need you,” and so he talks about that.  He talks about, you know, the people in the body that we consider weaker, we should see with higher honor.  He talks about that, and so I think there are things that we see in the Bible that are very clear.

Obviously, I think we need to look to Jesus, you know.  I was just doing some Bible reading, studying, and writing yesterday about Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman in John 4 of Him making an intentional choice to engage her, to ask questions.  And so, He’s speaking to her as a Samaritan, which Jews and Samaritans had no interaction with each other.

But He’s also speaking to her as a woman, and He’s also speaking to her as a woman who’s been ostracized in her community because of her social conditioning.  You know, being someone who has been divorced multiple times and so probably the talk of the town.  So, there are all kinds of things that we see in the text where we’re not just taking it at face value.  We’re doing a little bit more, a little deeper study, and we’re hearing about the text from more diverse voices too.  That’s why I think it’s critically important that regardless of where your local congregation is that you’re reading broadly, that you are listening – especially right now, we have the opportunity to listen online to different preachers, not just a person in our home church.

And I think that’s critically important because it’s not just about having a friend of a different racial ethnic group.  I think that’s important, but when we start getting to understand issues like injustice in history, and what happens regarding sociology or in society and culture, biases, and intersectionality.  Some of these words people may or may not be familiar with, but the point is that these are systemic issues that have very long legs.  And so those issues are not solved just by people making friends.  Those issues are solved because we have to have an elevated conversation now about how systems work, and how people are impacted by those systems, and how we can actually shape the direction of those systems.

And that doesn’t happen if we’re not reading more broadly, if we’re not very intentional in understanding our need to hear from more diverse voices, not just racial and ethnic in the United States, but also globally.  I think the Western church and American church misses out a great deal because we don’t have a regard or not even attentive to what God is seeing and how He’s moving and what He’s speaking to the global church.

I think there are things that the global church can teach us, especially, considering that the global church is growing, you know, in Asia and Africa, and is declining in America – you know, at least, before the pandemic.  And so, I just think there’s a humility that’s required to listen and learn from other people, and not thinking that we have all the answers or we don’t need them as Paul says.

Andrea:  As we are wrapping up the spring and moving into summer on this podcast, we’re going to be talking a little bit more about power dynamics and abuse of power…  And I would love for you to help us transition into that right now before we go.  When you think of people who are in that position where they maybe don’t want to abuse their power, maybe they’re in a situation where they may just not have the awareness that what they’re doing is not helpful or that it is abuse of some kind, spiritual abuse, or just contributing to that systemic dynamic that you were just talking about.  Could you share or speak to that person who is open to hearing about what they should be thinking about, what they should be doing?  How should they really approach how to think about their own power dynamic in their environment?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  Spiritually, I do believe that power in it’s initial state… so it can be used for good or evil, right?  And so, we see that.  So, I think when we go back to the Garden, the cultural mandate for us is that humans have responsibilities that, for example, plants don’t have, that animals don’t have.  And that responsibility of stewardship of the earth is part of our being made in the image of God.  And so there’s a responsibility that we have just for being human that I think we need to understand and not take lightly, especially when we think about, you know, the current situation we’re in and what God might be asking of us.  So that’s number one.

But then I think the other part of that is, you know, that we all… again, most of us in America, you know, if we can read and we have technology and, you know, we have our basic needs met, we have more power than most of the people in the world.  So, we’re not comparing to the neighbor down the street or the impoverished neighborhood fifteen minutes down the road, but just in the world.  And so what we do or don’t do given those things matters, and I think sometimes we’re not challenging ourselves to think about what we’re doing and how it impacts other people. 

And then there are ways, I think, we just honestly need to be repentant.  We need to confess and repent, because there are ways that we’re complicit in things that we, you know, might not want to be in.  So, for example, you know, I pay taxes and I vote, but I don’t necessarily agree with everything that the person I voted for that they may do, every policy they put in place, every legislation they sign.  And quite honestly, we’re not even looking at every legislation that they sign.  And so there are things that they may sign that I’m not agreeable with, but I voted for them; or I’ve paid taxes and so my taxes are supporting those efforts.  And so that’s just humbling that I think we need to be always asking the Lord to forgive us and have mercy on us for the ways that we sin that we don’t even know about, right?  And so I think that’s important.

And then lastly, this is where the mentorship piece comes in, but I think also, professionally, that sometimes we need professional help.  So, the mentorship could be, you know, it’s not just getting a black friend, or a person of color as a friend, or an impoverished person as a friend, or a disadvantaged or marginalized person as a friend.  Again, all those things are great, but if the power dynamics are not there, where they’re seen as a peer or equally valued, then even that relationship is going to be tainted.

And so, I think that we need to think about, you know, what ways might getting professional help be a good tool and resource, and that could be through spiritual direction, right?  It can be through therapy.  It can be through executive coaching where you have someone that has a better understanding of the issues but you know, they’re for you.  That’s why they’re partnering with you in the work, but they’re going to give you an objective.  They’re going to step away from it.  They’re not so personally involved.  They’re not out to get you, but they can give you some different ways to consider and look at some things, and also offer you some education.

So, I think at the bottom of this, a lot of it is people are just ignorant about the issues, and that takes time.  That is not a one and done thing.  That is a lot of time to get smart about the issues before you try to make decisions and speak on things, or even being an advocate.  Like, you need to understand the issues, and so I think that’s where the professional help connection come in.

Andrea:  Okay, great.  Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit about where people can engage you for professional help with like that, or learn about your books and the other things that you offer? 

Natasha S. Robinson:  Sure, yeah.  So, leadership consulting and coaching are offered through my website, my business T3, so t3leadershipsolutions.com.  So, you can find me there, and I’m offering virtual options as well for training facilitation and leadership executive coaching or mentoring.  So I’m glad to do that.  And then for my ministry stuff, you can find that, including my podcast information, at natashasrobinson.com.  

And then I’m also on Twitter, Facebook for Natasha Sistrunk Robinson, and Instagram.  So, I’m on all those platforms.  And then lastly, my blog is A Sista’s Journey, where I do writing.  And then all of my books, Mentor for Life or A Sojourner’s Truth, or I have a Bible study on the Nicene Creed, all of that you can find just searching Google or on Amazon – you can find it there – or on my website.

Andrea:  We will be sure to link to your website, which it appears that a lot of that is linked on your website.  So we’ll make sure that that is connected to our show notes so that it’s very easy for people to find there as well.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Wonderful!

Andrea:  Thank you so much for sharing your voice of influence with our listeners today, Natasha.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Thank you, Andrea.  I appreciate the time.

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Characteristics of a Business that Endures with Bill Flynn

Episode 141

Bill Flynn Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Bill Flynn is the author of Further, Faster: The Vital Few Steps that take the Guesswork out of Growth and we had a really interesting conversation about building a business and what the characteristics are of somebody who builds a business that endures.

Obviously, there’s a lot going on that we need to endure through right now. Even if you don’t have a business yourself and you’re listening as a leader who wants to have influence, there’s a lot in this episode for you.

In this conversation, Bill and I discussed his book, how to go from being sucked into those moments where you’re constantly putting out fires to being able to relax and plan for the future, how leading as a human being creates trust, how your response as a leader right now can impact your future success, and more!

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

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Transcript

People of influence know that their voice matters, and that they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.

 

Today, I have with me Bill Flynn, who is the author of Further, Faster: The Vital Few Steps That Take the Guesswork Out of Growth.  We have a really, really interesting conversation for you, in particular about building a business and what the characteristics are of somebody who builds a business that endures.

And obviously, there’s a lot going on that we need to endure through right now.  So, we’re going to talk not only about the business aspect of it, but the leadership aspects.  So, if you don’t have a business yourself but you’re listening as a leader who wants to have influence, there’s a lot here for you.  We have a very, very introspective and interesting conversation.

In this conversation, we talk about his book, particularly about building a healthy, thriving business.  We talked about how to go from being sucked into the tyranny of the moment – those moments where you’re sort of putting out fires that feel like crisis all the time inside the business – to being able to relax, step outside of the business, to be able to think about it, and really plan for the future.

He also talks about leading as a human being to create trust and what that really looks like, and then how leaders respond to pain – particularly right now – really can impact their future success.  I think that you’re going to get a lot out of this conversation with Bill Flynn.

Andrea:  Bill Flynn, welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.

Bill Flynn:  Thank you for having me on, Andrea.

Andrea:  So, Bill, tell us a little bit about your business and what you do.

Bill Flynn:  Yeah.  So, I’ll start back a little before my business because I think it’s relevant.  So, for about twenty-five years, I was an entrepreneur.  I did ten startups over that time frame.  At one point there, I was five for six, but I’ve always been a student of business.  I’ve always learned… you know, or tried to learn about how to get better and how to improve.

And what I found out along the way, actually after the fact, was that my style is really a coach style and that’s now what I do.  I am a leadership or a business coach.  So, I work with leadership teams, and I help them think about how to run their businesses well as they can.  I ask a lot of questions.  I teach them a framework that is mostly based on some certifications that I have, but I also add some of my own stuff in there.

So, I do that until recently.  I did that full-time and now I’m helping my clients.  Most of them, actually, can’t afford to pay me right now, but I’m doing it for free because this is a calling for me, so I want to help people as much as I can.  So that’s what I do at a high level.  I’m certainly happy to go into more details if you wish.

Andrea:  Well, it probably would be wise to go ahead and explain why free, why now?

Bill Flynn:  Well, so we’re recording this just at the beginning of April and COVID or the coronavirus situation is really coming to a head, if you will.  So, many of my clients are struggling.  One of them just laid off 60% of their workforce on Wednesday.  So, it’s been sort of really difficult for them.  Others are doing okay.  Actually, some of them are doing well, but there’s concern for the future and they want to make sure they preserve as much cash as possible.

So, I’m, you know, an expense they would rather not have to have.  So, I’m forgiving them that for now because, you know, their employees are more important.  So that’s sort of why things are going the way they are, unfortunately.  It’s too bad because my business was doubling every year and had been for about three or four years in a row.  But what are you going to do?

Andrea:  Yeah, yeah.  It’s very strange.  It’s a strange time when things just aren’t the way that that they’re supposed to be, it seems.

Bill Flynn:  Yeah, right.  Exactly, and who knows if they’ll ever get back that way.

Andrea:  Right.  You know, since we’re here already at this point, one of the things that we’re here to talk about is your book Further, Faster.  So, obviously, that is something that’s going to be really important for people, for businesses in particular.  But it also might change a little bit depending on how things shake out.  And maybe could you start by telling us just a little bit about your book and what people can really get out of it?

Bill Flynn:  Sure, yeah.  So, I never intended to ever write a book.  I actually don’t like writing.  I don’t consider myself a very good one, but I’ve been doing this for about four or five years.  I speak all over the country, and I help whoever I can, and I’ve got a lot of feedback from people saying the way I look at things is really different than they’ve heard from others.  So they said, “Hey, you should write some of this stuff down.”  And so I did.

I actually hired a company called Scribe Media to help me with it because of my lack of interest in writing.  And I went through a really great process where, basically, they interview you like you would be doing, but they do it over about ten or twelve hours.  And then someone who is a much better writer than I am tries to find my voice, and then writes it all down, and we sort of work through that.  So that was a process.

But, basically, the book was just released.  And the reason we decided to release it was because it’s a book that applies to this situation.  What I teach my clients is to build a really healthy and thriving business – one of those things is to make sure that you have enough cash to weather inevitable situations like this.  You know, we’re twenty years into the century, and we’ve already had three.  You know, we’ve had 9/11 we’ve had 2008, and we’ve had now that this thing, which are really impactful crises.

And one of the things I tell folks is you should have a set of capital that’s set aside for this happening, and you can decide how long you need it for.  You know, I usually recommend six months – there are some people who want to do it for a year.  There are some people who are smaller and struggling, and they’re happy to just get three months.  You know, whatever it is to just sort of get started.  But the bulk of the book is actually thinking about how do I actually build a business that endures, which we typically don’t have a lot of time to do because we’re too busy running the business.

And one of the first things I teach the leader – or the head of company, as I like to call them – is you need to figure out how to fire yourself from the day-to-day as quickly as possible, because your job isn’t to run the company anymore – it’s to predict the future.  And predicting the future takes brain cells and insight and innovation and creativity, which is stunted or really stopped if you’re thinking about the day-to-day crisis.  I like to call it the tyranny of the moment.  We’re sucked into that tyranny of the moment too often, which doesn’t allow our brain to think.

I ask a question which I love, which is, you know, “When do you get your best ideas,” and it’s usually when I’m running or in the shower or whatever, when you’re not actually thinking.  When you’re trying to think or trying to solve a problem, you let your brain relax.  And that’s the kind of thing you need to do to grow.  That’s what the book is about.

So, we released it because… I don’t think it can help anyone right this moment.  But if you start reading it and think for the future, once you get out of this crisis and the hunkering down part is sort of… you’ve done as much as you can, you’ve survived at least for a period of time, and you can start thinking about the future.  This book is great for that.

I’m an 80/20 guy; it’s written into the title of which is Further, Faster.  It’s the vital few steps, and the law of the vital few is really the 80/20 rule, and that’s what the book is.  It’s really the few things that you should do first and focus on those and get a hold on those which will move you furthest fastest; then you can work on the other stuff.  I like to sort of think of it as this is the book for the big knobs that you can turn, and then there are other great books for the smaller knobs that you can turn to truly tweak and improve.

Andrea:  So, getting everybody together and onboard is part of what is crucial to moving forward and to moving quickly.  That’s something that we have particular interest in here at Voice of Influence is, you know, how do you have that influence and make sure that you’re actually influencing others in a very ethical way.  And one of the things that you bring up in your book is trust.

Bill Flynn:  Yeah.

Andrea:  On page 75, you say, “Game-changing ideas can come from anywhere in your organization.  The odds of them filtering up to you increase considerably when you hire the right people, and let them know that they can talk freely about their ideas without fear of judgment or ridicule.”  Would you tell us a little bit more about how to create that kind of environment where people are able to share their ideas freely?

Bill Flynn:  Yeah, sure.  So important, really great question, and thank you for referencing a page in the book.  That’s great.  So, I’m a bit of a neuroscience geek, which you may have noticed from some of the stuff in the book and creating this sort of psychological safety – which Amy Edmondson has really coined the term – is really important.  So, that starts with you as the leader.

The best way to create that environment is to show that you’re a human being.  You’re flawed.  You’re irrational.  You make mistakes.  You’re okay saying, “I’m sorry and I screwed up.”  That goes a long way, you know.  We are tribal in nature, and we’re also very forgiving in nature.  And if you are seen as that and you let yourself be vulnerable in that kind of way, then people will start to say, “Oh, well, if the boss can be screwing up left and right and whatever, and admit it then, boy, it might probably be okay for me to do that as well.”

And, you know, that people will be a lot more comfortable with being themselves and speaking up, questioning things.  You know, Amy Edmondson has this great quote that she talks about in one of her TED Talks, which says, “It turns out that no one wakes up in the morning and jumps out of bed and says, ‘I can’t wait to go to work today to look ignorant, incompetent, intrusive or negative.’  We prefer to look smart, helpful, and positive.”

But what happens in the workplace is, unfortunately – we don’t always do it deliberately, sometimes we do it inadvertently – we create this environment where people don’t feel comfortable doing that.   So, they don’t want to look ignorant, so they don’t ask any questions.  They don’t want to look incompetent, so they don’t admit a weakness or mistake.  And they don’t want to look intrusive, so they don’t offer ideas; and they don’t want to look negative, so they don’t criticize the status quo or certainly don’t criticize the leader.

You have to be open as a leader to be criticized and to be challenged, and be okay with that and be curious and say, “Wow, we have completely different way of looking at this thing. I’d be really great to understand your perspective.  I hired you.  You know, I hired you because you’re smart, and you’re a good fit, and you have skills and all these things.  So, it’s in my best interest to at least hear what you have to say, and then figure out if maybe that’ll modify my way of thinking or change my way of thinking.  

“Or have you understand, ‘I’ve thought that through and here’s why I didn’t do it that way.’”  And they understand that, right?  So, they’ve been acknowledged, and they’ve understood, and you’ve explained to them why maybe that isn’t the way to go.  That’s what you have to do.  It really all starts with you and you with your team.

Andrea:  Totally agree.  Have you noticed any particular characteristics of leaders who kind of allow themselves to be open to criticism and change their way of thinking?  Or any particular characteristics of leaders who kind of just don’t know how to go there and refuse to go there?

Bill Flynn:  Yeah.  So, definitely the first part; the second part is a lot longer answer, unfortunately.  So, I actually pick my clients, and I look for three things.  I look for someone who’s humble, I look for someone who’s a lifelong learner, and someone who is comfortable challenging the status quo.  And I have a process I work through; I talk to them a few times, I ask them a bunch of questions, I ask them about their team.

I actually offer ninety minutes of my time for free in front of their team and walk them through an exercise so I can see how they interact with their team, because behavior really tells everything.  We can say we are a certain way, but you really don’t prove it until you behave that way and you’re put in that situation.  So, I try to create that environment so I can see them.

And I’ve turned down some clients where I didn’t really like the way they interacted – they thought they were the answer man.  It’s usually the man, by the way, too often.  They felt like they had all the answers, and they would look weak if they didn’t.  I can’t really help them, because I’m going to come in and ask a lot of really basic questions that they probably don’t know the answers too.  And if they’re not comfortable saying, “You know, wow, that’s really good.  I’m glad you made me think that way,” then I can’t help them.  So, those are the three characteristics that I look for.

There are too many other explanations of the other person, right?  I sort of make a half joke and I say 95 to 99% of all leaders should hire someone like me and 95 to 99% of those people never will.  They don’t want to be seen as not being the answer man, right?  Jim Collins calls it the “Genius with a Thousand Helpers.”  I can’t help that person.  And at some point, they’re going to run out of time and energy, and that’s usually what happens.

It’s usually when growth stalls is when that dynamic, you know… an intelligent and really dedicated founder just runs out of time and energy, and hasn’t built that culture – they almost always hit a wall.  It might take a year.  It may take five years.  It might take ten years, but you will hit the wall.  And it’s unfortunate because you probably built something really great, but just haven’t created that environment to take it to the next step.

Andrea:  You know, as I think about the situation that we’re in currently and what you just said, something else that comes to mind for me is people’s experience with pain.  I’ve noticed that people who have experienced pain and have almost a brokenness… not necessarily in the idea that they were completely broken as a person, but to the point where they felt like they needed help, to the point where they accepted that they were not able to be everything for everybody, that sort of thing.

There is something really powerful with the person who has gone there and their ability to do the things that you just mentioned – those characteristics that you talked about when you’re picking your clients – being humble, and learner, and wanting more than the status quo.  When you add to that also just this experience of pain and how one responds to that, there’s something incredibly powerful with that.  Would you want to comment on that?

Bill Flynn:  Yeah, sure.  I’ll take it from two perspectives.  One is what I found is, especially, working with all the founders… because I was never a founder of a company.  I was usually brought in to help scale it, you know, sales, marketing service, that kind of thing, kind of a CEO kind of level.  And what I’ve found was the founders that had the most trouble with in working with, and getting them to the next level or helping them get to the next level were those who are really successful.  Either in some other part of their life, or maybe they had a previous success or two in founding companies.  They just assumed, it seemed, that the next one would be right so everything that they thought was perfect.

And it was only, I think, those that I worked with that had had difficulty before, or struggled in some way, or were in a position where they didn’t know something and they had to figure it out and didn’t just do it themselves… you know, lean on other people and ask lots of questions were the ones that were much more likely to succeed.  And those are the kind of folks that I kind of work with, you know.  They’ve… either through one way or another, they had some level of pain as you described it, or lack of success, or some something that humbled them in some way.  I think that’s really important.

My daughter is a college-level swimmer, and I’m an athlete as well and I played college hockey and tennis.  I played soccer in high school.  So, I’ve been on lots of teams and my daughter has been on teams since she was five – swim team, which really isn’t a team.  It’s a bunch of individuals that happen to get together and do their own thing, but they’re the best kind of team I’ve ever met.  They’re so supportive of each other.  And, you know, even though it’s really an individual sport, they act like a team that I’ve never seen before.  And I sort of asked myself, “Why is that?”  And the only thing I come up with was similar to your question on pain, which is shared misery because swimming is really, really hard.

You know, I’m a college-level hockey player.  I played against guys who played in the NHL, but I got to tell you, I don’t like swimming.  It’s super hard.  It’s difficult.  So, I think that’s the shared misery of, you know, swimming six, seven miles a day and burning seven to eight thousand calories in a few hours, and having to work through that.  I think that’s what makes a good leader and also makes a good team.  I think that’s an indicator; when you can share those burdens and you know that you’re all in this together and it’s going to be difficult, I think that helps you.

Andrea:  So, when we’re looking at the time frame that we’re in right now, we’re looking at the situation that we’re in right now, those people who are listening who are leading teams and going through hardship, what would you say to them about how their response to this all matters in terms of their future success?

Bill Flynn:  Oh, as a leader, it matters tremendously because people are going to judge you by how you act right now.  You’ll see the best and the worst in people when you’re in situations like this.  The leaders that take it on as a way to really take charge and help people and support them and sacrifice on their own versus those who sort of, you know, go into protective mode and safe mode and think more about themselves… you’re going to sort of see how that transpires over the next several months. 

And I think, you know, one of the things that you can do first is to understand that – when you said people are in pain right now – there’s a lot of stress.  The brain does not like uncertainty, and it forces itself into this protective mode – you know, this sort of fight-flight-freeze kind of thing we talk about in the popular culture.  And your first job is to help them get some control over their lives as much as you possibly can.  And what I tell folks all the time is just give them meaningful work, right?  Have them focus on the work.  They can control the work.

There’s other things you can do, of course.  You have to be concerned about health and safety of your employees.  We’re seeing that a lot with Amazon and some other strikes that are happening right now where people are saying, “Look, they’re making me go to work, and you’re not giving me any protective clothing.”  “You’re making me stand next to people.”  “You’re not telling me who’s sick.”  You know, I don’t think Jeff Bezos is going to come out of this very well unless he starts to make some changes because he says, “I’m hiring 100,000 workers,” which is great, but these people that work for him are saying, “Look, I’m uncomfortable being here because I could get sick at any moment.”  So, it’s going to be a huge thing.

So, health and safety, first, of your employees and customers, and then get them… the ones that you’re able to keep and keep going forward with, get them to focus on the work.  Keep them with things they can control, and then keep them in touch with each other.  You know, I recommend four things that you can do in virtual ways; have a daily huddle.  Every day, quick daily huddle; you know, what’s most important, what’s some good news going on?  Where are you stuck?  You can have a weekly meeting with your team to do more difficult things.  And then, you know what, have a virtual happy hour once in a while.  Just let people hang out with each other in a social setting, even though it’s sort of weird because you’re just kind of hanging out on your laptop and whatever, but it feels good.

And then lastly is just set up an hour or so a day where you and your team just hang out.  Meaning you all get on Zoom; you don’t have a meeting, but you’re just on Zoom together.  And, you know, if something pops up, just, you know, raise your hand or ping somebody.  It helps us, you know, at least have some semblance of connectivity.  I think those are some great things that leaders can do, and people will remember that.  They’ll remember that you carried them and their families.  They’ll remember that you tried to keep them connected and tried to give them some sense of control.

Andrea:  I like those.  I like those a lot.  Okay, so for yourself and your own sense of… you know, leading yourself through this kind of situation or anytime when you have really experienced hardship, is there any book or person or principle that you cling to, to help you get through it that really influences your ability to get through and keep going?

Bill Flynn:  So, I’m a big fan of David Rock, who is the head of the NeuroLeadership Institute.  He’s written a bunch of books, Your Brain at Work and a couple others.  So, I’ve taken those principles and applied them to myself.  And also my dad was an alcoholic, so there’s sort of A Principles – you know, first things first, that kind of stuff – and I think they really apply… which is what I just mentioned, I try to figure out what are the things that I have direct control over and indirect control over and what are the things I have no control over.

And the stuff I have no control over, I just don’t worry about them.  There’s nothing I can do, right?  I practice stoicism, you know, from Cato and Epictetus and all those guys.  You know, you focus on the stuff that you can control and realize that what you have is a gift.  The likelihood of us being here is next to zero, so remember that, you know, which is hard to do.  So, I sort of fall back on those things, which is the stuff I can control, I will try to put my heart and soul into it; the stuff I have indirect control on, I’ll try to influence.  You know, as you say, I can have some influence to my clients and to others.  So that’s what I do.

You know, my job is to protect my family as a parent and myself, but you know, I also can’t do that and ignore other people.  We’re tribal in nature and our inclination is to help others and so I’m trying also do that, which gives me some control right?  I lost 93% of my revenue because of this.  So, what I did first was I extended my home equity line of credit.  I applied for an EIDL.

I’m going to apply for the PPP from the CARES Act just so I have buffer because I don’t know how long this is going to last.  I do have some money in the bank to hold me for a little while, but now that I’ve done that, I can spend more time on, “Okay, how can I help people?”  And so I offer one hour a day to any leader that wants to chat, you know, whether they work with me or not.  I’m giving free, you know… any of my clients can set up any meetings with me that they want, and I’ll help them any way I can because that’s stuff I can control.

Andrea:  Hmm.  All right, so in closing this out, I’m going to ask you also to give us information about yourself and how people can get a hold of you or access to you.  But first, what advice would you give to somebody who really would like to have a Voice of Influence?

Bill Flynn:  So, if you want to influence others, the way that you influence someone is to have some level of trust first, because people are only influenced really… they allow themselves to be influenced.  It’s not something you can make them do.  And that trust is the first thing that they want.  So, the way to trust you is to feel like that you’re sincerely on their side, and you’re not doing it with an agenda in mind.  You’re doing it to sincerely help them.

So, I was a thirty-year sales guy.  I’m not a built-in sales guy.  I don’t have great technique.  I’m not an extrovert – I actually skew introvert – but I do have a sense of service and I always brought that to my sales job.  And the first question I would always ask when I was meeting with a potential prospect or their team was, “Hey, we’re gonna meet for like an hour or so.  If each of you could describe for me what would be a really good meeting, like when you talk to each other afterwards, how would you describe this meeting to each other as a success?”  And then I would write them down.

I wrote everything down they said, and I made sure that everyone had a chance to share.  And then before the meeting was over, I made sure I went over the list and said, “You know, this is what you asked for, and did I give this?”  And in an hour, I had great influence over these people.  And I had a very good close rate, you know, because also, if I said at the end of the hour a half, “Look, I can’t help you.  What you’re asking for is not what my product does.  It partly does what you want, but I wouldn’t want you to be unhappy, so here’s the name or two that I recommend people who would do what you want.”

And I’ve had people refer people to me.  They turned out not to be my clients, but they referred others who they said, “Oh, you know, Bill’s a great guy, and I think what you want is what he does.”  So, to me, that’s influence.  I definitely influenced them in some way, but they allowed me to do that.  They gave me permission because they saw that I was sincere in service.

Andrea:  Hmm, I love that.  All right, Bill, where can people find your book Further, Faster, and any other resources that you’d like to highlight?

Bill Flynn:  Yeah, sure.  So, I have a website, it’s a catalystgrowthadvisors.com.  All my contact information is on there, my email and phone number are on there.  But if you want to reach me without having to go there, it’s just bill@catalystgrowthadvisors.com.  And then of course, I have the book out.  It’s on Amazon and other places; there’s a Kindle version, a paperback.  There will be an audible version, but it actually got interrupted because the narrator is in New York, and he was told he couldn’t come to the studio anymore.  So, that’s been put on hold for a little while until they’re able to finish it.  So, I’m looking forward to that because that’ll be kind of fun.  So that’s it.

Andrea:  Awesome!  Thank you so much for being a Voice of Influence for our listeners today too, Bill.

Bill Flynn:  Thank you for having me on, Andrea.  I really appreciate it.

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Choosing Resilience Over Worry as a Business Owner with Aaron Wenburg

Episode 140

Aaron Wenburg Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Today, I’m genuinely excited to introduce to Aaron Wenburg and, no, it’s not a coincidence that we have the same last name. Aaron is, in fact, my awesome husband. He also happens to be a Physical Therapist, the Co-Owner of Sandhills Physical Therapy and Sports Rehab clinics, and a loving father.

In this episode, we talk about why Aaron became a Physical Therapist, how what he does is a good mix of business and caring for people, some of the struggles he experienced along the way, how he overcame those struggles, how he knows when it’s time to have a difficult conversation with his team, the precautions his clinics are taking as they keep their doors open during the current health crisis, and more!

Aaron’s story is one of resilience and an example of what it means to show grit and keep moving forward when things are difficult. I know I may be a little biased with this one, but I really think you’re going to find this an inspiring episode.

Take a listen to the episode!

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Transcript

People of influence know that their voice matters, and they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and this is the Voice of Influence podcast.

Well, today, I am thrilled to introduce to you to Aaron Wenburg, who happens to be my husband.  And he is also a physical therapist, co-owner of Sandhills Physical Therapy and Sports Rehab clinics, loving father, and awesome husband.

In the near future, we’ll be doing an episode where we really talk about our relationship, and how we handle each having businesses, and the kind of relationship that we’ve cultivated and grown over the past fifteen years.  But for now, today, what I really like to do is share with you Aaron.  He’s had a great amount of influence on my life and continues to in my business.  He is respected, and people look to him quite often for advice or to help them figure out to answers to problem that they have.

So, I’m really excited, genuinely excited, to introduce you to him today and to share with you this interview.  So, we talk about his own experience of why he became a physical therapist and how it really is a good mix of business and caring for people, as well as some of the things that he struggled with, how he overcomes those struggles… and his is a message of resilience, of learning to have grit, to keep going even when things get hard, to wade through the mess, even when things are messy, even if you don’t like it being messy.

I’m really genuinely excited to share with you the advice he gives and his experience because I really think that it’s going to touch you in a very special way.  I did take a little bit of liberty and we went a little long on this interview.  I mean, it’s not very often that I get to sit down with Aaron for a whole hour and have him talk the whole time.  I don’t know if that’s ever happened quite frankly, but it’s so fun.  It was so fun to be able to hear his perspective and get him to talk about himself, which is something he doesn’t ever do.

I really think that you’ll find it worth it, and in the end, you will forgive me for letting this interview go a little long.  And at the end, we do cover some questions that people from our audience or our friends asked me to ask him for this episode, so I’m excited to share those answers with you as well.

All right, enjoy this interview with Aaron Wenburg:

Andrea:  All right, Aaron Wenburg, welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.

Aaron Wenburg:  Thank you.

Andrea:  I am so glad that you are here today.  This has got to be one of my favorites; like, I’ve got this huge grin on my face right now.  I’m excited to talk to you.

Aaron Wenburg:  Well, good.  We’ll see how it goes.  No guarantees on this one.

Andrea:  Well, thank you for agreeing to do it.  Okay, so I have for you some questions about you, and then I have some questions that other people asked.  I let Facebook know that I was going to be doing this interview with you, and we had some people chime in with a few questions that they wanted me to ask you and so I’m going to do that too.

Okay, so you are a physical therapist.  You have a doctorate of physical therapy, and you did a residency after you graduated.  It was about five years later that – right after we got married – that we moved to La Crosse, Wisconsin, and you did a sports medicine residency there for physical therapy.

And then we came back, and you had a job.  And then we ended up moving to where we are now, where you are one of the owners of Sandhills Physical Therapy and Sports Rehab in North Platte, Nebraska.  So, Aaron, what got you interested in physical therapy in the first place?  Because you knew from a long time ago that you were going to do it, so how old were you when you first decided that you were going to be a physical therapist?

Aaron Wenburg:  Hmm.  Honestly, I’m not really sure.  Probably in the latter part of high school, I guess.  I grew up in a small-town funeral home.  My dad was the local mortician in a town of 800 people.  So, living there, growing up there, my brothers and I were exposed to various health-related issues.  And I think that probably spurred some of my interest in health and general well being, I guess, at a young age from that.  And then from that point, I think I saw my dad take a lot of call time – a lot of nights and weekends where he would have to get up and work – and I knew I didn’t necessarily want that.

I appreciated a lot of what he did and how he helped people and got to work with people, but I also knew I didn’t want to be on call.  So, I kind of started looking at other healthcare-related fields from that end, and physical therapy allowed me to get to know the patient maybe a little bit more but also have some ability to make a diagnosis and affect health.  And that’s been an enjoyable part of it, I guess, from that end.

Andrea:  Yeah, it’s interesting.  So, you knew early on when you were kind of deciding to go to physical therapy route that physical therapy allowed you to both help people with their health, but at the same time, get to know the patient maybe a little better than you would if you were seeing them once every few months or that sort of thing.

Aaron Wenburg:  Mm-hmm, yeah.  I guess there’s somewhat of the relationship component that I enjoyed.  I guess I saw my parents have relationships with people, whether it was my mom teaching school or my dad in the community aspect.  And I appreciated that and felt that physical therapy maybe allowed me to have a little bit more time with people.  And, you know, unfortunately, many of the things I deal with in the rehab setting, people don’t get better quickly.  As much as I try to help them quickly, most of it is a process and it’s working through the little problems and, “Well, this comes up. How are we gonna do this differently or how are we going to affect that?”

And with that, I get to use aspects of health and aspects of stuff I was looking into anyway as a kid that kind of spoke to me that way.  And I guess I also kind of liked the aspect of it was a challenge to get into school.  It was a nice aspect of, “Well, if you work really hard and do this, this, and this, you might have the ability to get into school.”  And I enjoyed that achievement aspect of it too, I guess.  So, I’d say that’s probably the initial drive towards it.

Andrea:  And that drive and achieving entry into med school and then achieving other things has been a theme I think in your life.  What do you think drives you to want to achieve different things?  Some people are really, really motivated to achieve and others are just motivated to do other things, you know; it’s not always about achievement.

Aaron Wenburg:  I don’t know.  I think as I get older, I think that’s what one of the things I’m gradually learning more and more about myself in that I’m happier when I am working towards something.  Or… yeah, I guess working towards something, have a goal and I can make in my head of the plans that I would like to work towards.  Not that I achieve all those or anything, but it does help my mental side of things to say, “Okay, here’s the method or the workings that I’m going to go for, I guess, and then if it doesn’t work out, that’s fine.”  But at least I enjoy the process of working towards that and I don’t sit still very well.  I don’t have the ability to precisely relax.

Andrea:  We’ve talked about how hard it is for us to have fun, and that fun for us is really more that if we feel like we’re building something or if we feel like we’re working towards something; that’s more fun.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yeah.  I enjoyed that, you know, making things better that we’re restoring something or building, knowing that I can say, “Hey, this is better because of some plan or some action or some process.”  I don’t know, even when you’re playing a game or whatnot, it’s not just about winning the game, it’s about, “I’ll find more satisfaction in finding a new way to win the game and still win the game,” as opposed to just winning the game, I guess.

Andrea:  Okay, sorry, apologies for the giggles here.  Okay, tell me about the new way of winning the game piece, what do you mean?

Aaron Wenburg:  Like I said, I enjoy the process of developing new things and discovering ways to do things.  And, you know, many games I feel are a lot of chance and I like to build into as much of my own strategy that can win the game and still win the game of chance as well.  I don’t know, I think that is a little extra piece of achievement that I like to throw in there, I guess.

Andrea:  And that’s fun.  It’s not fun for those who play with you, but unless we’re on your team.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yeah.

Andrea:  All right.  So, let’s see here.  I’m going back here a little bit to my questions.   Did you always know that you wanted to be a business owner or own your own clinic?  Or at what point did you realize that that’s what you wanted?

Aaron Wenburg:  No, I did not set out to own a business, or that’s never been a grand goal of mine, for sure.  After, you know, working for several different people, all great people, it was just this sense of not knowing exactly what, or this decision was made but not knowing the process of what the decision or how the decision came about, I guess.  I don’t know, I guess I knew I wanted a piece of that.  And part of that probably I can easily become a victim, make myself a victim, and sit in that, and I’m not very happy in that mode, but I can easily go down that victimhood road, I guess.

And when I feel like I have a part in the decision process apart in that thinking-through, it makes me become more a part of it, more active, and I don’t know more driven towards a certain goal with it.  And I guess that was a part of the decision making to own a business or multiple businesses and be a part of that because like I said, I enjoy the process and enjoy, you know, that as much as the end goal, I guess.

Andrea:  I love that.  I love that you love the process because how else can you go through.  I mean, this whole idea of being a business owner is messy and difficult but you’re saying that you like that because it is a process and you can do something about it in the midst of it.  And, really, the role that you play at your clinics and, you know, you play multiple roles and everybody does, your partners do as well.  And I think that you’re playing that COO role a lot, the operations and making sure that people are doing well and not just the patients but then also the team and partners who partner with you in other clinics as well.  You are always kind of in that; you don’t mind the developmental nature of it all.

Aaron Wenburg:  Mm-hmm.  Yeah, I think the development is when you grow, and like I said the restorative, I hate to use the word process again, but the process of building, achieving getting better and better every day no matter what that is something I feel I’m happiest in.  And I’ve always said it’s going to be hard for me to retire because I need that next process or that next activity to get to.  And, yes, so whatever eventual retirement looks like or eventual whatever next twenty, fifty, seventy years looks like, I think it has to have some component of that building, you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually, health, and all of those components is when I feel I’m best and when I feel I’m making the most headway.

Andrea:  How do you kind of cope when you’re not making progress in one of those areas, because I know that’s really hard?

Aaron Wenburg:  Certain times in my life, I’ve done better at it than others.  I mean, that’s pretty you can probably cover that as well as I can and say “Oh.”  But you know, I’d say different times in my life, I’ve done different things as well.  I think a fair bit of coping is waking up the next morning and the day after that and the day after that of keeping your head down and keep grinding and know that “Hey, this is the process,” and having that sense of, “Okay, what’s lately I’ve been trying to tell myself?”  “Well, what’s the worst thing that can happen with this?”

Andrea:  “With this,” meaning?

Aaron Wenburg:  With whatever is going on.

Andrea:  Okay.

Aaron Wenburg: With this activity or this event or this business or whatever.  And, well, if that does happen, we’re going to be okay.  We’ll figure that out and we’ll adapt and adjust and keep moving forward with, I guess, the fundamentals of faith, the fundamentals of things I know are true, the things that I value in my family, the things I value in friends and relationships, I guess.  And that’s what I keep trying to tell myself that there are days better than others and I guess that’s the foundation that it goes back to.

Andrea:  Well, I mean, that is hard.  It’ hard, I think, for me too.  It’s hard for anybody to feel like we’re stuck or that we are stagnant.  And growth is such a part of, a beautiful part of life, and when we can’t, we feel like we’re not growing.  I think it can easily start to feel like we have nowhere to go.  But what you’re saying is, this is the way I would phrase what you were saying, “If I can’t be destroyed by this, then let’s just keep going.”

Aaron Wenburg:  Bingo.  Yep.

Andrea:  I can’t be destroyed by this.

Aaron Wenburg:  Mm-hmm.  Yeah.  I would very much say that’s a part of what has become more evident as we move along in life, I guess.

Andrea:  Yeah.  And like you were talking about the tendency toward feeling like a victim.  I mean, it sounds to me like what you’re saying is, “As long as I can still do something about it, what can I do something about?  As long as I’m taking action and I’m making some kind of impact, then I’m not a victim.  I can have agency.  I can make a difference.  My voice matters.”

Aaron Wenburg:  Yes, I would agree.

Andrea:  Yeah.  So, from what I know of you, Aaron, people who are close to you tend to come to you with their concerns a lot and they always have.  They feel comfortable with you even though you’re not like some big charismatic whatever.

Aaron Wenburg:  I’m not a lot of things, you’re right.

Andrea:  You’re right.  This is a stretch to be doing so much talking in one sitting, I think.

Aaron Wenburg:  You’re right.

Andrea:  Which is really fun for me.  I’ve got a captive client or not client but a captive interviewee here.  But people tend to feel comfortable coming to you with hard things or bringing their concerns to you.  I mean, that’s what I’ve seen, do you sense that as well?

Aaron Wenburg:  No.  I don’t know.  I guess I can’t speak for anybody else.  But that’s kind of been one of those things along the way that has been just a part of me and is normal, I guess.  I can’t speak to anybody else’s normal but that’s not me, I guess.

Andrea:  Yeah.  I wonder if it has to do with your desire for that developmental process, you know, to be a part of the development process.  So, you are open to that, you’re constantly working on that and moving towards goals and fixing problems, really.  So, when people have a problem and they think that you can speak to that or help them somehow they come to you.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yeah.  Yeah, I realized, I’m not perfect.  I’m not close to perfect and yet still enjoy the process and the part and people do know that they can develop more and however much I can facilitate the better, I guess.  I enjoy listening to people’s ideas.  When I make a decision, I appreciate everybody’s inputs, their opinions, and whatnot.  Not that I’m going to use any of them, but I do enjoy, “Okay, you think that’s because of what, or you think that’s because of that.”

And just as somewhat of a measuring stick to see if my ideas or activities align with the way you’re thinking or somebody else’s thinking, I guess.  So, maybe that process of listening, the process of, you know, trying to figure out the problem as well as figure out that person or figure out a solution, one I find that enjoyable and maybe that translates to the person.  And number two, hopefully, it benefits them as well.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Yeah, I like that answer.  Okay, I have some questions from other people.  So, I’m going to go ahead and start with those now.  One of the questions, Ted asks, “Where do you feel your voice is most influential?”  Would you tie it back to kind of what we were talking about just a little bit ago or do you have other thoughts on that?

Aaron Wenburg:  The most influential.  That’s a good question.

Andrea:  Ted always asks good questions, right?

Aaron Wenburg:  He does.  Doggone it, Ted.  No, I think it depends on the situation.  But I play a little part in a lot of different roles.  And I wouldn’t say it’s very influential at all, but I hope to get little nuggets in the people that I’m closest to, I guess.  And apart from that, hopefully my actions, you know, speaks louder than my speaking ability or this podcast or any of it.  But I think it’s probably most influential to those closest to me, I guess.

Andrea:  I think that you’re right.  What’s that?

Aaron Wenburg:  Would you concur?

Andrea:  I would concur, yes, because you’re not going to broadcast your voice.

Aaron Wenburg:  No, no.

Andrea:  I’m broadcasting your voice, but you wouldn’t do it on your own.  Oh, gosh, we’ll get to that in a second.  But I think it is that sort of steady presents, you care, and in fact that actually leads to a question that Rosanne asked which is, you know, physical therapy has to do with both healthcare and, you know, sort of the diagnostic kind of thing, but also with caring for people.  And her question was, “How do you balance both, carrying, like, both the business side of things?”  You know, you’ve got to get the job done and you got to keep things.  You guys have to make sure that everything is sustainable and that the team is doing well and all that sort of thing, the business side of things, or the money side of things but then also the team and the patient side of things.  So, how do you balance the two of those, which one takes precedence?

Aaron Wenburg:  Honestly, it’s tough because you always have the money side of things and you can always look at the number of this or that from year to year and it’s easy to, “Okay, we just want to do this many dollars more than last year.  We want to see this many more people.  We want to, you know, keep reaching that goal.”  But I think it goes back to you, “Okay, what is the main goal?”  The main goal is to, you know, broaden our reach and help people and try to help them make the world a better place, and largely if we do that, generally, the business side of things takes care of itself.

And with good people around, it helps so much, and I guess the ability to know that it’s part of my job too.  And I take decent satisfaction in, you know, providing jobs for good quality people that I know are helping people as well, and I feel like I can be of service and have helped that way too.  So, I think trying to keep the bigger goal, the bigger mission, and it’s all about people, and generally, the money will follow, I guess.

Andrea:  And I know that sometimes you had to make hard decisions or have hard conversations or whatever throughout life, but especially in the last ten years of, you know, really owning a business and owning a few businesses.  In those cases, how do you know when it’s time to disappoint somebody or say no to somebody?  You know what I mean?  Like, have those challenging conversations that most people really shrink away from or they handle with such, I don’t know, heavy hand and arrogance that they come off as not being helpful to everybody in the end?   How do you see a balance there for yourself?

Aaron Wenburg:  I think part of that comes and really try to get a decent understanding of where the other person, the other event is coming from, I guess.  I’m trying to put myself in their shoes… and granted, I can’t completely understand that and realize that they’re dealing with a whole bunch of other circumstances that I don’t know as well, and as well as they don’t know my circumstances from being on both sides of that and trying to take all of that into account.  And I also know that, you know, I’m not right over half the time and neither are they, but we’re going to move through it and we’re going to be okay.

And you know, just having that point of resiliency, “Here’s what I know is true and we’re gonna keep moving forward and it’s not gonna be pretty and it’s not gonna be the most elegant thing in the world.  But we’re gonna be resilient and we’re gonna muddle through this, and in the end, it’s gonna be better than it is now, I guess.”

Andrea:  Do you think…

Aaron Wenburg:  Go ahead.

Andrea:  I definitely don’t like it when I interrupt you.

Aaron Wenburg:  That’s all I got.

Andrea:  Oh guys, you have no idea.  I cannot interrupt my husband because he has a lot to say, but he doesn’t say very much.  So when he is talking, I need to keep my mouth shut, but the interviewer in me comes out right now.  So, it sounds like you’re pretty comfortable with mess, you know, that muddling through it like you said.  Would you say that you’re comfortable with the mess or you’ve just gotten used to it, know that you’ve built this resilience over time?

Aaron Wenburg:  No, I’m not comfortable with it.  I don’t know anybody is and I don’t like it.  But there’s a part of it, I guess, you can somewhat expect and nothing’s perfect.  Nothing’s, you know, truly set apart.  I mean, there were times in my career, I’d go to work thinking that, “Okay, today’s gonna easy day, great day.  I’m gonna do this, do this, do this.”  And then it never turned out that way and I’m like, “Why was I even setting my expectation up for that?”   And that, “Okay, here’s some of the things I’m gonna have to work through and get through and it’s still gonna be a good day.”  But that’s just the part of the living in our world as we see it, I guess,

Andrea:  Yeah, like it’s not, it’s not going to be easy, but I’m going to get through it and it’s going to be okay.

Aaron Wenburg:  Mm-hmm.  Yep.

Andrea:  Okay.  And Brenda asks, “How have current events affected you or your business?”  And she’s referring to, I believe, she’s referring to COVID-19 and everything that’s happened.

Aaron Wenburg:  Oh, it’s difficult.  But, yet, it’s also one of those things that, you know, however, it affects us or occurs, we are going to get through it.  And I hope with everybody around me, we’ll get through it as well.  We obviously are, you know, looking at expenses, looking at, you know, things we’re doing, absolutely.  But also knowing that we will get through this, I guess, and know that we have great people on board and we believe in our mission and do feel that if it doesn’t work out, we’ll be okay as well.

Andrea:  At the time of this recording at the end of April, you haven’t had to actually shut the doors on the clinic yet or the other clinics, what precautions do you guys have to take or have you been taking?

Aaron Wenburg:  Well, obviously, the payroll protection program has helped us maintain consistent cash flow through the clinics.  But instead of taking it as, “Whoa, this is the terrible thing,” we’ve tried to switch that storyboard to, “Okay, this is a great time to improve yourself, a great time to get continuing ed work on certain skills or maneuvers.”  We always have that list of stuff we want to read up on or study more and get better at, I guess.  And, you know, trying to promote those activities as well as promote, you know, “Okay, as healthcare providers or influential people throughout the community, what things can we put more of our energy to now to further help people?”  And one of the main things I like about physical therapy, it has a lot of great people in the profession.

Andrea:  This is true.

Aaron Wenburg: And have a heart for people and want to see people improved, and I guess I enjoy that community.  And, you know, they are always willing to help throughout the community and stuff like that too.  So, we’re really trying to promote more of that and really feel like this is a unique time to develop skills also and help out and so far so good, I guess.

Andrea:  Okay, Sarah asks, now this is a question kind of about me too, “What has been the most challenging thing for you in the transition of Andrea working, in particular, writing books, starting Voice of Influence and how have we worked through.”  Now, I’ll say this, Sarah, we will cover this more in-depth in a future interview where we’ll have more of a conversation about our relationship and our working relationship.  But, Aaron, what has been something that’s been really challenging for you in this?

Aaron Wenburg:  In this transition…

Andrea:  It’s not really a transition anymore; we’ll say that we’re full-in.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yeah.  I think initially for me, the hardest part was knowing when I could or we could have our discussions about activities, or many times I’ll come to you and ask what you think about this or that or that sort of thing.  I think prior to that, it was basically all on my schedule and I could find you at various times or when you brought me the lunch or when you did this or that, I guess.  And I guess I have to be a little bit more strategic with, “Okay, this is our time to talk.  This is when, you know, I can, in fact, save this for when we get together,” or stuff like that.  I guess that was probably the transition as much as any.  And also in that time knowing that, “Yeah, this is the time that works best for us, so I need to fully present and get this, you know, figure out if this concerns in that time,” versus, “Well, maybe I don’t quite feel up to it, or maybe we don’t need to talk about this or that,” I guess.

Andrea:  Yeah.

Aaron Wenburg:  Does that make sense?

Andrea:  It does.  I think there was something about, like, we’ve started to look at our conversations in terms of when do we talk about your business, when do we talk about my business, when do we talk about our children or our family.  And one of the things that we implemented, actually quite a while ago, was about every quarter so, every three months or so we’d go out to dinner and we’d call it our date.  And we don’t really do date night.  We go for walks or we talk, you know, we do different things.  But if we have a chance to be playing with our family, we play with our family, otherwise, we’re building and doing stuff.

But we would take this time to go out to dinner, and it would be all about, you know, where are we?  Where do we want to go?  What are the challenges that we’re going to be facing here in the next few months?  How do we want to handle that with our schedule?  You know, what are our concerns about our kids or things that we want to make sure that they have and that sort of thing.  So, that was one very practical thing that we started doing.  And I would agree with you too that one of the hardest things is knowing when we’re in problem-solving mode and when we’re just in listen mode.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yeah.

Andrea:  That’s hard for me too, like men get a bad rap.  They get that a lot like that they’re in this problem solving, “I just wanna be heard.”  Trust me that’s been flipped around in our marriage too.

Aaron Wenburg:  Mm-hmm.  Good question.

Andrea:  Okay.  I think I’ll summarize the other two questions, Sam and Audrey were kind of asking about the blessings and challenges of living with a deep thinker, somebody like me.  And Audrey used the words wonderful and talented.  Thank you, Audrey.  But I think the point is, you know, I’m stepping out there and I’m doing things or whatever and also the deep thinker thing.  What are some of the blessings and challenges or maybe even just one of each for now?

Aaron Wenburg: Mm-hmm, blessings.  I enjoy watching you do your thing and enjoy sitting back and knowing the process and seeing it just, you know, flow out there and, yeah, make a difference.  I guess I get probably more satisfaction from that than you do in all this, I guess.  So, that’s a huge blessing even though there’s, you know, tough times and challenges and it’s not easy.  But, yeah, I do feel and I’ve felt this for years that we needed to get your voice heard and out throughout the world and ability to make an impact wherever that is.

And so, it definitely makes an impact on me and is one of those things that, I get more enjoyment out of it than you probably know.  And the challenge aspect of that, I don’t know, life is a challenge.  I don’t expect it to be easy.  And, I guess, whatever that is good and noble and just is going to be hard and in those hard times, I keep trying to tell myself that.  So, I think just knowing that it is going to be hard and, you know, there has to be a process or a system or a way to work through that and get up every morning and get going with it, I guess.  So, I don’t know of a specific on that but, yeah, that’s kind of what I got.  I don’t know.

Andrea:  That’s okay.  That’s all right.  Thank you.  I’m tearing up a little bit, by the way.  But you know as to Sam’s question about living with a deep thinker, Sam, you need to know and every audience you should know this, that when we were first kind of developing our relationship, before dating and whatnot, one of the things that Aaron said to me that really piqued my interest and made me even more interested in him as a, you know, potential life partner was, he said, I don’t like fluff.

And that word fluff, I kind of parsed it out a little bit after a while and kind of figured out that he’s a deep thinker.  He thinks differently than I do.  So, we’re deep thinkers in different ways, I think.  But we both have a very strong sense of values, you know, common values about people and about process and development and moving towards a goal.

But then also that there was a little less tolerance for kind of things that are on the surface, which, for a while was hard for us to kind of figure out like when we first got married or whatever, are we supposed to look a certain way like other people and we were pretty serious.  We’ve always been pretty serious, which kind of drives at least one of our children nuts.  But we’ve also had to grow together, you know, being a little more lighthearted with our kids and being able to play and things like that too.  So, I’d say that he’s also a deep thinker; I guess is what I wanted to say.  It’s not just me, just so you know.

Aaron Wenburg:  Yes, I would agree.

Andrea:  And then finally, Sarah asks, what have you found most helpful from Andrea in supporting you in your career?

Aaron Wenburg:  I think the recurrent themes of, “Hey, we’re in this together, I care about you and we’re gonna be okay.”  And I think that reminder of, “Well, why did you say this?”  Well, ultimately, it’s for my good.  And going back to that, I guess, has been the most helpful and then from that respect and the conversation about this or that is valuable and the conversation about, “Well, I talked to this person today,” or “What do you think about this?”  Just that additional partner in life that has ultimately good in mind, even though sometimes it’s hard, it’s tough, but going back to that, I guess, has been the most helpful.  And that’s something that you’ve always done a good job of, and I appreciate that.

Andrea:  Well, I appreciate a lot of things about you too.  And I don’t know, your steadiness, especially right now in terms of what we’re all experiencing with COVID-19, just my reaction versus your reaction is very different.  And you’ve always helped me to remain a little bit more steady, and I think that we balance each other out in some ways when it comes to our, you know, passion and what we care about.  But I am grateful for you, Aaron, and your voice of influence in my life and how you have, I don’t know, all the things that you do for me as well.

Aaron Wenburg:  Thank you.

Andrea:  One last question for you, if you could go back to your thirty-year-old self and talk to yourself about being a voice of influence, like you’re going to want to have influence on people, you’re going to want to have an impact in the world or whatever, what advice would you give yourself?

Aaron Wenburg:  Hmm.  I would say, worry less and do more.  I can get into the point of paralysis by analysis, and that would be one thing I would tell myself too, and just dive in and you’ll be okay, I guess.  I feel I’m working through more and more of that as I grow older.  Yeah, that’d probably be the most beneficial thing for me.

Andrea:  Awesome!  Well, thank you for taking time to do this interview, I appreciate it.

Aaron Wenburg:  Well, you are welcome!

Andrea:  All right.

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Live Coaching: Building a Transformational Keynote with Lia Valencia Key

Episode 139

Lia Valencia Key Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Play here (the red triangle below), on Apple Podcast, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio (Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Lia Valencia Key was raised in an impoverished Philadelphia neighborhood, and even lived in a homeless shelter with her mom, sister, and her brother in one room that she says is about the size of a broom closet.

When Lia was on the podcast two and a half years ago, she was just starting to share her story and just starting to really get back out there.  And in the last two and a half years, she has done some amazing things.  Her amazing jewelry has been worn on-air by Robin Roberts of Good Morning America, she’s been interviewed by Mel Robbins and her jewelry has been featured on QVC.

Lia would like to develop a keynote that she could give, and she and I have been in conversation about this. So, what’s you’re going to hear today is a little bit of strategic planning as we look at how we can bring the audience to a point where they’re really internalizing her message for themselves and where there’s an actual transformation that can take place in the people in the audience.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

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Transcript

People of influence know that their voice matters and that they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and this is the Voice of Influence podcast.

Today, I’m visiting with Lia Valencia Key who has been on the podcast before in Episode 33, about two and half years ago.  Lia was raised in an impoverished Philadelphia neighborhood, and even lived in a homeless shelter with her mom, sister, and her brother in one room that she says is about the size of a broom closet.  And at one point in her life, there was a real big turning point, and she talks about this in Episode 33.

I just really encourage you to go back and listen to Episode 33, because the way that she talks about this is fantastic and it’s so important; it is her signature story.  But her mom sits her down in fifth grade, realizing that Lia has been kind of going down the path that everybody around her is, and she wants to kind of bring Lia to a point where she can make a decision.

She basically told her that her predicament didn’t determine her destiny and that she believed that there is more inside of her.  But she had to make a decision if she was going to follow everybody around her and just keep doing the thing that everybody expects, or if she was going to lead herself and determine to get out of this particular situation that she was in, and follow her dreams, and actually go and achieve the things that she wanted in life.  That was an incredible moment because at that moment in her life, she really turned everything around.

Lia started getting good grades, getting on the honor roll.  She not only graduated high school, she graduated college and became a teacher, got a master’s degree, went on and did all these other things.  Then she had a vision for having a jewelry line.  She does hair and makeup for On-Air Talent – that means people like QVC and other places – and she has done some pretty amazing things in that realm.  And then she wanted to create her own jewelry line that would be inspirational to people.

So, when she and I talked two and a half years ago, she was just starting to share her story and just starting to really get that out there, and in the last two and a half years, she has done some amazing things.  First of all, her jewelry has been worn on air by Robin Roberts of Good Morning America and many other On-Air Talent.  And she was asked by the co-founder of IT Cosmetics to come with her to the Mel Robbins Show, where she was being interviewed about being a mentor.  She asked Lia to come on the show with her.

So, Lia was interviewed by Mel Robbins, and then she auditioned for The Big Find for QVC.  They were looking for jewelry manufacturers, creators who would be able to sell their jewelry on QVC, and she was one of the people that was chosen for The Big Find and was featured on QVC with her jewelry – her dream come true – in February.

Now, Lia is really creative and really passionate, and I love creative, passionate people because they have so much to offer.  I think everybody has a lot to offer, but I understand the unique problems of the creative, passionate person.  And one of the problems that we have when we’re both creative and passionate is that it can be difficult to articulate what exactly we’re trying to say.  There’s so much we want to say.  There’s so much perhaps wisdom that you have and certainly that Lia has; so many amazing experiences, so much she wants to share.  She would love to be able to share those things to inspire both people who are… like, women who are in corporate or even kids who are in fifth grade like she was.

So, she would like to develop a talk.  She would like to develop a keynote that she could give, and she and I have been in conversation about this a little bit and then I said, “Well, would you like to come on the podcast and actually flush a little bit of this out?”  And so, what you’re going to hear today is you’re going to hear a little bit of strategic planning, listening to some of Lia’s passion and some of her story.  And we’re going to look at how we can bring the audience to a point where they’re really internalizing the message for themselves, where there’s an actual transformation that can take place in the people in the audience.

This is a short conversation.  There’s plenty more to be done, but we thought that you might enjoy hearing us kind of work through what her talk could be about – how to structure it, and how to really bring about some transformation and invite transformation in the audience.

So, here is my conversation with Lia:

Andrea:  All right, Lia Valencia Key, I am so excited to have you here again on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Lia Valencia Key:  I’m so excited to be here again.  You kicked me off!  You’re my first, first-ever podcast.  So, thank you from my heart.

Andrea:  Okay.  So, here’s what I’d like to ask.  There are some different places where you share your message – you talk about it when you’re selling your jewelry, and you also talk about it with adults.  So, in terms of speaking, you could talk to people who are in corporate or people who are just living their lives and they may be feeling stuck in these expectations that other people have for them and what they think that they should be, and you’re here to share something with them.

You also could share it with kids at school, and that was something that you’ve talked about before and being interested in doing and sharing your story with other maybe fifth graders or you know, kids that are in a situation like that.  So, there’s different ways of looking at, like, each of your audiences.  What would you say a kid who was in your position in fifth grade… what are they stuck in – what’s their before?  What are they frustrated with that gets them to the point where they would actually listen to what you have to say?

Lia Valencia Key: So, for children, I can see it vividly.  I can see it for several things.  If I could take myself back to fifth grade Lia, one is this is where it’s going to be all the time.  Meaning wherever environment I’m in, this is what it’s going to look like so why should I try, right?  Why is school important?

Andrea:  So, they can’t even see beyond where they are?

Lia Valencia Key:  Right, because when you’re younger, unless someone clicks that in for you, no one tells you you can see beyond.  It doesn’t even make sense.  I wouldn’t even get it, right?  So, I think it’s really powerful to share to youth, no matter what their environment is – it doesn’t even have to be in an impoverished environment; it’s just youth as a whole – that your now is not what your future looks like.  And the beauty is right now you are the route artist that can create the picture of your future, so what do you want to create?

And I think giving the youth the power to choose and know that you can create it so what do you want to create?  And allowing them to see that all of this is a culmination of where you can go in the future and that your mistakes don’t determine where you’re going to be in the future.  So, for example, if I was a horrible child and I was the one that’s always expelled in school, that doesn’t mean that right at this moment they can’t create a whole another future for themselves, because no one’s telling them that, you know.

And the funny part is I used to be a teacher, fun fact.  And what we always tell them is, “Oh, you’re getting expelled.”  “Oh, this is not good grades for college.”  “Oh, this is going on your record,” right?  So, we’re making this thing so permanent and when we make it permanent that means that if it’s permanent then I can’t change, so I just keep doing what I’m normally doing.

Andrea:  Yeah.

Lia Valencia Key:  But if this is not permanent and at any moment, if I can choose to go to another course, if life is a bunch of roads… if you want to visually map it out for youth – life is a bunch of roads.  Right now, you’re on this road, and if you look down that road, it’s looking real dark, lot of weeds, lot of danger.  But there’s another road that you can easily cross over to and that one looks a little like this, or then you can go to that road and that road looks like this, so which road do you want to choose?  And at any moment you can start to paint your road – I think that’s really powerful for children.

Andrea:  I totally agree.  Now, what keeps them from doing that, though?  Okay, I know I can start a new road, but what do I have to give up in order to do that?

Lia Valencia Key:  You have to change your path.  So that’s the beauty, right?  If you’re an artist, you have to paint a new picture.  Now, you can change and crumble that picture up, and start a new picture.  But when you start a new picture, you got to use new colors, right?  And so maybe you were using grays and blacks and browns and whatever those darker colors are, but you can paint a new, brighter picture and you can start using colors where, “I actually come to class today.”  “I actually listen to my teacher today.”  “Maybe I don’t understand the work.”

And another thing about giving youth the power is a lot of us don’t tell children, “It’s okay to not be perfect and to not know.”  I always used to tell my nieces, “Ask the teacher for help.”  Most of the time, people want you to ask for help.  Most of the time, people don’t ask for help.  And so giving them power that it’s okay not to know, it’s okay to be weak in certain areas; but where your power is, is standing up in that weakness, and then asking people to help you through that weakness.

And once you start getting help, you start to, of course, correct yourself because you’re like, “Oh!”  You know what I’m saying?  “Oh, someone will listen to me.”  “Oh, this isn’t a negative thing.”  “Oh, I really can read, but someone just needs to show me how I actually read.”  You know what I’m saying?  And so I think it’s giving children more of a visual picture that they can create their own power, and the power is within them.

Andrea:  Oh, yeah.  I think if you can help kids to see that they can decide what they want and that they have what it takes to get there, that’s incredibly powerful.  I think that one of the most important things that you can do when you’re speaking is to ask people, “What do you really, really want deep down?  What do you want for your life?  Not the path that you’re on right now, not the path that you’re expected to go down, but what do you want?  What do you want for your life?”  And then give them a chance to visualize it for themselves.  You know, “Who’s in your life?  Where do you live?  What kind of work are you doing in the world?  What kind of meaning do you have?”  If you give people a chance to really think about that for themselves, they might be able to say, “You know what, the picture that I’m painting really isn’t the one that I want, and it’s okay for me to think about painting a new painting.”

Lia Valencia Key:  I like that because this is what I want.  Thank you for helping me with this.  This is what I need.  Thank you because I need… like how do I get the people to the how, right?  So, this is helping me – asking the question of letting them resonate within themselves – because one person can talk to you all day, but if I get to myself, then I can hear you.

Andrea:  Yeah.  So, what you have is you have a ton of wisdom and inspiration to offer people; like, so many things, so many great stories, so many great analogies, and so much passion.  And so what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to take all those, like, dots of inspiration, passion, stories and whatever, we’re trying to figure out, “Okay, if we were to bring those dots into alignment so that we’re really giving people a chance to experience transformation, what would it take to bring people on a journey where they’re actually experiencing this change in themselves in a keynote like a talk or in a book or a curriculum?  What are the maybe five things that need to happen in my talk in order to help people along this journey of transformation that I know that I can bring them down?”

Lia Valencia Key:  Yes, this is what I want!  Okay, so we’re saying the first thing that we brought out for me to do or add is the asking of the question, “What do you want?  So, that you can see yourself first…”

Andrea:  Yes, give them a chance…

Lia Valencia Key:  I’m not actually creating the speech, but I’m saying wherever it lies.   Yes, I like it.

Andrea:  Yes, giving them a chance to picture in their own heads for themselves.  I think, though, that it probably starts with your signature story.  So, you probably start with, “This is where I come from, and this is what my mom said and it changed everything, and then I decided to lead my life.”  When you’re doing a talk, in that signature story at the very beginning, you leave an open… like there’s something that you don’t tell everybody yet, and you only tell it at the very end.

I can’t remember if we’ve actually looked at that before with you.  But you leave something, like if there was some piece of jewelry or something that your mom suggested that you wear, and then later on at the end of the story you tell about finding it years later.  Like, you bring it back to your mom again at the very end, somehow or another.

Lia Valencia Key: Oh, I love that!  That totally is perfect for me because I don’t have to share the part where even through all that my mother would say, “You sparkle like earrings.  Always wear your earrings because it represents the light inside you.”  So, we can bring that at the end, right?

Andrea:  Maybe, yeah, it could be that.

Lia Valencia Key:  It brings you from here where your journey lies all the way to… it’s back to the beginning and it’s full circle.

Andrea:  Yes, exactly.  That’s right.  You make it full circle so that everybody feels really satisfied when you’re done with the story, when you’re done with your whole talk.  So, you’ve opened the loop.  You’ve, like, gotten people really interested with your story and the fact that you’re in a different place now, and then you get them thinking about themselves, “So what do you want?”

So, sort of like little Lia turning on her heel and going, “Okay, here I am with my mom.  She just asked me what the heck I want.  You know, what do I really want to do?  Do I want lead my life or not?”  And then I turn on my heel, and now I’m looking at you and saying the same thing, “So what do you want?  What is it that you really want?  What do you don’t like about where you’re at right now, about what’s in your life right now?  What don’t you like?”  That sometimes easier for people to identify – most of the time, it’s easier for people to see that – and then give them a chance to imagine what they do want.

And then once they can imagine that, then you’ve kind of helped allow them to open themselves to, “Okay, so I’m curious about the next step.  What do I do about this?”  A lot of times, people are afraid of opening up the truth of what they really feel, because if they’re honest about it, they have to deal with these negative emotions and like, “Well, I don’t want to think about the fact that I don’t have what I want in some area of my life because that makes me feel bad.”  And so what you’re doing then is… it’s emotional, I guess, is what I’m saying, and you want to do it very carefully.  But giving them the opportunity to say, you know, “Okay, now that you’re open to thinking about what you do want, here’s what you need to do to get there or at least to start on that path.”

Lia Valencia Key:  I love this because I really want to create a keynote, and this is opening me up because I have all these things within me, like two and a half years ago.  But I don’t know how to unlock it in others, so this is really helping me because I don’t want to just talk at people.  I want to have it be impactful to their life, for them, not for me.  And so I really love when you say, talking about like, “What is not serving you in your life right now?  What are the things in your life that aren’t the right thing, you feel, and then what do you want?”  Because that’s what I do all the time, I’m a daydreamer.  My past time – one would call it “wasting time.”  Others and myself will call it daydreamer, and I am the most biggest daydreamer, and I daydream about what do I want.  And when you were saying those words, I’m like, “Oh, she’s actually saying what I do.  I daydream about the things that I want.”

Andrea:  I love the word daydream.  I love that.  I love all of your words, and how they’re different from mine, but they mean the same thing.  I think that’s fantastic, daydream.  I love it.

Lia Valencia Key:  It’s so visual, and you say it so I can hear it and people can see it.  But in those daydreams, I start to manifest my heart’s desires.  And when I am able to manifest my heart’s desires of what I want, then I can organize what’s of importance of what I want and then I can start acting on, “Okay, so then how do I get to that?”

Andrea:  Okay, so, what you just did then… what you’re saying what you do is you daydream or you realize what you want, and then you prioritize what you want and figure out what you’re going to do to get there.

Lia Valencia Key:  Yes.  And I don’t kill my dream.  And when I say daydream, it’s not thinking about what I want.  I’m literally daydreaming; like, it’s a whole different concept.

Andrea:  I like it.

Lia Valencia Key:  Like, thinking about what you want is like, “Oh, I want a pair of yellow shoes,” right?  That’s thinking about kind of what you want.  When I say daydream, I literally go into an awake zone of creating a picture or movie because it’s actually live, it’s actually happening.  I’m seeing everything as if it’s there.  Like, literally creating this movie or this picture of what’s happening, of what’s possible, of what’s in my heart, and I see it.  I see it live, and then I go from that to, “Whoosh, okay.  So then now what’s important or what’s closer to me?  So, certain things are really far out, but what part of that is closer to me?”  And then I take what’s closer to me, and then I start to make moves or concepts on, “How could that happen?”

Andrea:  Okay, “what’s closer to me” means what exactly?  What does that mean?

Lia Valencia Key:  Meaning, “What’s in my reach of do right now?”

Andrea:  Okay, so the easy win.

Lia Valencia Key:  Right.  The easy win, the easy win.  So, let’s go for my jewelry line, for example, because that’s right there, right?  So, I visualize the jewelry line, like I see people wearing my jewelry.  I see them walking down the streets.  I have two favorites – I saw myself literally on QVC sharing my heart and my message to the world.  And my other one is I see people in an airport – one of my favorite places is an airport – I see people walk in an airport.  I see one woman that looks super corporate, and she’s wearing Valencia Key jewelry.

And then I see another woman that’s working at the cash checkout thing at one of the little kiosks in the airport, and I see her looking at the Valencia Key jewelry, smiling because she knows that this lady has inspired her that, “Whatever you see me looking like, it’s possible for you.”  Like, I see that vision, right?  So then I say, “Huh, okay!”  Then I got to make the jewelry, right?  I’m a sketcher.  I love sketching.  So, the first thing I can do is sketch.  So, I start sketching these pieces that I see people wearing, right?  That’s the closest thing that I can do.

And then I go in order.  The next thing, “Okay, so then when you sketch the piece, what do you want it made of?”  Then I do research on materials of jewelry.  “Okay, so you decided you want to try three different types of jewelry then how do you make the jewelry?”  I would research how.  So then I go into these small processes.  It’s a super long process, but if you don’t get weary because you saw the dream so vividly, this is how you start to move into your picture of what your life should look like.

Andrea:  That’s great.  I love that.  Okay, so going back to the keynote, you know, and how you’d bring people through this journey, I think that you then start with your signature story with your mom and then share with people your steps; like, daydream, and then decide what’s closest to you, and then start taking steps or plan or whatever… however you want to label those three steps.  And then you talk about how you did that with Valencia Key jewelry.  Yeah, and you show the example.  Maybe it’s flipped around – maybe you show the example, and then you then you explain the steps.

But regardless, I mean, that’s what’s kind of the middle, like, “This is the plan – this is how you do this,” and then that sort of thing.  And then you sort of give people the opportunity – after you tell them about Valencia Key jewelry and your success – then you can give people the chance to say, “What don’t you like about your life?”  “What do you want?”  Give them a chance to daydream, and then to think about to make a choice about, “What’s the next thing?  What’s the closest thing to you?  What’s the easiest win that you could come up with?”  And then have them think about what’s the next action they’re going to take to do that.

Lia Valencia Key: I like that.

Andrea:  You’re giving them that opportunity in the moment to create their plan, to start painting a picture.

Lia Valencia Key:  Oh, I like it.  And I like calling it “repainting our picture”.  Yeah, I love that.

Andrea:  Yeah, it’s exactly what you said.  I think what would be even really cool would be they need to somehow post about it on social media and tag you.  I don’t know, something where there’s some sort of like feedback where they can email you.  I’m not exactly sure what that piece is.  But there’s some sort of like, “Today, right now, get out your phones and do this thing. What is the next thing for you, whether you just want to share it with me personally, or you want to share it with the world and tag me in it.”  It could be something like that, I don’t know, or it could be do it later, but it’s more impactful if they do something in the moment.

Lia Valencia Key:  Yes.

Andrea:  Because you’re building momentum.  You’re helping them, like, get out the starting gates.

Lia Valencia Key:  Right there.  And I love to…because this doesn’t just have to be about starting a business.  It can be about your personal want.

Andrea:  Totally.

Lia Valencia Key:  Like, maybe you daydream and you see yourself climbing Mount Everest, right?  If that’s a joy to you, that’s been in your heart, “Okay, what’s the closest thing?”  Like, just to put joy in your heart and start to bring your heart’s desires alive…  Oh, I love it.

Andrea:  And just naming it is so big for people, for them to admit it.  I mean, putting that on social media or telling you or writing it up on a board.  Let’s say you have this really big piece of paper up, or like a bunch of sticky note, big sticky pads, or something like that where people can come up to the wall… or write it on a sticky note, and then stick the sticky note on the wall.  And then you’ve got everybody kind of coming up with their thing.  They’re staking their claim on, “This is the thing that I want.”  And then they, you know, visually you can see everybody’s…  It depends on the audience.  It really does.

Lia Valencia Key:  No, I love it!  I just got chills!  And I also just got chills about, “This is the thing that I want.”  Something about that resonates to me because I’m trying to figure out what is this titled?  Like, I want it to be kind of universal where…  Yeah, if I’m in a corporate environment and we’re talking about business people, we can only go corporate, but I would love just everyone.  So, I love it because we all have wants, and I feel we don’t go after all of our wants.  I feel that, like I feel we suppress a lot of our wants and when we unlock going after our wants, there’s so much joy in it.

There’s a lot of challenges in it, but the joy supersedes.  Like, when you really can just manifest and stand into what you’ve daydreamed or what you said you wanted to do, and you can be standing physically there [in] like two and a half years – like we did – and really be standing in it, it’s magical.

 So I like that, “What do I want?”  Something about it…I’m thinking about the title or something, but I’ll figure that out.  That gave me chills, and I love having them physically do.  I was in a conference where – their was totally different – but they had people write stuff on a paper and pass it all to the front, and it was kind of standing for others so it was totally opposite.  But it was some power, and people together writing out their feelings and collectively bringing it together.

Andrea:  Mhmm.

Lia Valencia Key: I have to do that.  So this is the next step for me.  I think we started off, like, “Where do you want to go?”  This is the next step of when we talk about, “What do I want?”  This is what I want the next part of my journey to be – I want it to be me vocally helping people unlock living in their wants and living in their joy, and pairing that with – instead of me having a book – if you want to bring a piece of that home with you so as you’re on your quest of taking those reachable moments and accomplishing in them and sometime you get kind of stuck, looking at your bracelet or looking at your necklace or your ring and saying, “Okay, it’s possible. I could take a break, but then I can get back to it.”

 Andrea:  Motivation… reminding people about what they really want and that they can get it.

Lia Valencia Key:  Yes, exactly!  You get me!

 Andrea:  It’s exciting.  You’ve been through a lot, and you’ve accomplished a lot.  You have a lot ahead of you, and it’s just an honor to be able to partner with you on this journey in some way.

Lia Valencia Key:  And I want to thank you directly for seeing my heart and seeing my light…  I guess it was three years ago because it was before the podcast, and we met in person through a beautiful, amazing Toi Sweeney, and you saw my light.  I was able to work with you and you heard my message, you heard my heart.  And you knew you could give of me; you could pour life into me, and you took that on at the very beginning when all this was in the daydream works, right?  And you poured into my dream, and you were… you’re part of cultivating this.  And I’m so grateful to have you just believing in me and making me stronger to be able to touch more lives, because that’s what we’re doing.

Andrea:  I feel… when I see somebody like you, Lia, and your story – and I know that it’s powerful, I know it can change people’s lives – all I want is to do what I can to throw my gifts at it, and see if it’ll help and see if there’s something that might come of it for you.  And so, anyway, this has been a real joy, and I’m excited to see what the next two and a half years holds for you.

Lia Valencia Key:  Oh my gosh, I’m so excited.  I need to do these podcasts every two and a half years so we can see what’s happening there.  Well, thank you so much.  Anyone who’s listening, thank you for sharing your time with me, and thank you for always lifting me up.  This was a joy and an honor.

Andrea:  And where can they find you?

Lia Valencia Key:  You can find… valenciakeydesign is my Instagram where you can find all things jewelry, inspirational words, and quotes, and also how to wear a good layer piece.  I love to inspire through showing how to wear a good piece because I love a good fashion.  And then Lia Valencia Key is where you learn about me and you follow my life journey.  So, it’s all of me pouring out to all of you.  And QVC.com is where you can find my QVC jewelry and just type in Valencia Key when you go to QVC.com, or you can go to valenciakey.com and find other jewelry that’s not on QVC.

And it’s my prayer – not just about you getting the jewelry – but it’s about you living the message, living your purpose, walking into your joy, living a life of love, and me being honored to be along with you throughout your life’s journey.  It would just be an honor to me

Andrea:  Lia, you are not just a Voice of Influence.  You are helping others be a Voice of Influence too.  Thank you so much.

Lia Valencia Key:  Thank you!

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How Freshly’s Focus on Infrastructure & Empathy Supports Fast Growth with Colin Crowley

Episode 138

Colin Crowley Voice of Influence Podcast Andrea Joy Wenburg

Play here (the red triangle below), on Apple Podcast, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio (Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Colin Crowley is the VP of Customer Experience at Freshly, where he directs a two-hundred-person department across five locations in the United States and beyond. He specializes in building customer service departments from the ground up with a focus on scalability, infrastructure agility, technological innovation, and gold-standard quality and efficiency.

In this conversation, Colin shares the five key pillars of customer support that Freshly adopted, their cross-functional communication and how they involve customer service agents into their strategic process, how a voice of influence needs to have a good sense of the on the ground reality as well the strategic big picture, and more.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

 

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Transcript

People of influence know that their voice matters and that they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.

Today, I’m speaking with Colin Crowley, the VP of Customer Experience at Freshly, where he directs a two-hundred-person department across five locations in the United States and beyond.  He specializes in building customer service departments from the ground up with a focus on scalability, infrastructure agility, technological innovation, and gold-standard quality and efficiency.

In this conversation, Colin is going to tell us a few things.  You’re going to hear the five key pillars of customer support that Freshly adopted, and let me tell you right now that they are very applicable across customer experience.  So, I really encourage you to listen and think about how you could apply some of these to your own company.

He talks about their cross-functional communication and how they involved customer service agents into their strategic process.  And I ask a few direct questions about just how that plays out for them, and the benefit to both the customer service agent and to the organization and customer.

And then finally, he shares about how a voice of influence needs to have a good sense of the on the ground reality as well the strategic big picture.

Here’s my conversation with Colin about how Freshley’s focus on infrastructure allows them to grow fast.

Andrea:  Colin, welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.

Colin Crowley:  Thank you.  It’s great to be here.

Andrea:  Can you tell us a little bit about Freshly and your role there?

Colin Crowley:  Sure.  Freshly is a ready-made meal service that’s very active in what’s called the food tech space alongside companies like Blue Apron and HelloFresh.  We’re very different from those companies, though, because rather than shipping ingredients to customers that you can use to cook meals and have the experience of enjoying your kitchen, we ship ready-made meals that are already prepared.

So, essentially, you get the meals delivered in an insulated box, and you can pop them in the microwave for about three minutes.  Or if you so desire, you could pop them in the oven instead if you don’t like the microwave, and then you’re all set and you’re ready to go.  We really sit at the nexus of health and convenience, and we’re there to provide healthy meal options for consumers who otherwise are too busy in their lives or don’t have the time to get up and cook as much as they would like to or not like to as the case may be.

We know that there’s definitely the need for this sort of service in a very modern world like this that’s so very, very busy.  We’re also healthy food, which I would define as all-natural and gluten-free.  We’re actually the largest certified gluten-free meal producer in the country right now.

I’m the VP of Customer Experience at Freshly, which is to say I’m in charge of our customer support function.  We have approximately two hundred customer support agents, with some in the United States in New York and Arizona.  And we also have two offices abroad that we use to supplement our customer support as well.  We’re active on phone lines, webchat, email, text messaging, and even Apple Business Chats.  So, we’re pretty active in all contact channels, and we’re available 24/7.

Andrea:  I love the idea of your product.  And it’s amazing to me how quickly you were able to scale and bring people on board in your customer experience function.  How many people did you say are involved with that now?

Colin Crowley:  We have approximately two hundred people.

Andrea:  How do you help all of those people to not only… of course, they’re going to need to know about their product, your product and the answers that they need to provide, but to almost even be able to really represent you well as a brand?

Colin Crowley:  Yeah.  That’s actually a great question.  A lot of what we did is we focused very early in growing customer support on infrastructure building.  And I should also provide the caveat that when I joined Freshly, which was about four and a half years ago, we had just moved our headquarters to New York City.  So, back then, we only had one other person in customer support, only a single person who’s answering all the phone calls and emails from Arizona.

So, I built up the team from the bottom up from there.  So, we went from that one person in 2016 to about 12 people by the end of 2016, to about forty people by the end of 2017, and it’s just grown exponentially from there.  We spent a lot of time investing very, very early in quality assurance at Freshly, knowing that if you really want to set standards for how you want your customers to be treated, it’s important to do so very early in the growth of a customer support organization.

Because once you grow an organization and you reach a certain size of even like fifty agents plus, it’s much harder to go back and then try to impose standards on those people almost as a second thought, because by then you have agents who have, you know, learned certain bad practices, let us say, and it’s just harder to get buy-in from agents on the ground.  So, you really have to be proactive.

Very early on when we only had about six agents and this is at the end of 2015, I worked with the seniormost of those agents to establish a pretty intensive quality assurance program, which we’ve grown overtime to make it even more specific.  But we really sat down to ask ourselves, “What do we value in the relationship with our customers, and what do our customers need from us as a customer support organization?”

And we define five key pillars of customer support.  And then we ask questions like, “How do you realize those pillars in actuality as opposed to them being theoretical concepts?”  So, one idea being that we focused on empathy as a key component, and of course, empathy is important in all aspects of customer service.  But it’s especially important for us because we deal with the product, namely food, which is very personal and which directly impacts people’s health.

So, the ability to have a free-flowing, meaningful, friendly conversation with a customer support agent is important for our customers in particular, because they’re inviting us as a company into their lives in more intimate ways than perhaps if they were buying shoes.  And we wanted to make sure that the customers felt comforted by that interaction, that we did the best we could to assist them.

Another example is that we are very conscious of the fact that as an organization, we were – and still are – in a very unique space where there really isn’t another company that’s doing what we’re doing – namely shipping fresh meals – not frozen on a national scale across all forty-eight states.  Again, we have a lot of companies that are meal kit services, but we don’t really see companies that are actually in charge of such a vast operation in producing the meals themselves as opposed to outsourcing that to local vendors.

We are very conscious that customers may come into the relationship with us not quite knowing what service we provide and thinking we are a meal kit service.  So, we put a lot of emphasis in our quality assurance program on what we call being outgoing or basically being proactive, and defining certain pieces of information that should be delivered to customers, even if it’s not directly relevant to the customer’s question or concern.  That’s just making sure that customers fully understand the nature of our service, and that we’re trying to get ahead of future problems or future questions they may have rather than be reactive.

Andrea:  I like that.  So, what would one example be of an outgoing or proactive statement that you feel your customers would need to hear, even if that’s not what they’re necessarily calling about?

Colin Crowley:  Sure.  A perfect example is the fact that we’re a subscription service.  So, you sign up with us, and you order a box of four, six, nine, or twelve meals that will actually be delivered every week.  And of course, you choose the day of delivery that makes the most sense for you, and you can change that after the fact, and you can change your meals from week to week, etcetera.  But we’re really designed to fit into someone’s lifestyle as opposed to being a one-time thing.

And of course, retention and loyalty is very important for us among our customers.  It doesn’t mean that you get us every single week of your life because maybe you want to go and you do want to cook some weeks, etcetera, but we really aim to be a longer-term health solution for customers.  But again, we have a lot of customers coming in not necessarily understanding the nature of our service.

And one thing that we identified early on is that we found customers were confused by the nature of the subscription process.  One thing we do is we are a weekly subscription as opposed to a monthly, so when you order through us, we don’t kind of staple you into receiving meals for an entire month, but rather give you flexibility to skip week over week, which is meant to be more flexible for the customer.  But it also can create more confusion because you have a quicker turnaround if you want to skip receiving meals one week and so forth.

So, we put as a standard in customer support that when you identify a customer as being a new customer – and we have definitions of what a new customer is; so you know, typically someone who’s on their first or their second order – and you have an interaction with those customers, you should proactively make sure that they are aware that we are a subscription service.  And you should proactively assist them by mentioning the deadline that we have for every customer to either skip your next week or change your meals for your next week, knowing that that is a pain point for a lot of early customers who either don’t know we’re a subscription service or if they do, they may not be cognizant of how quickly they have to make decisions about what meals they want for the next week.

So, we’ve enforced that pretty regularly over the past four years.  And it’s definitely helped us to get in front of problems and make sure customers have a better experience, because those customers that we’re informing about our subscription service are now less likely to be confused and suddenly they find that they’re charged.

Andrea:  And were you able to kind of anticipate that ahead of time?  You said it’s been going on for four years that you’ve been saying this particular thing, or is it something that you responded to once you realized there was a problem?

Colin Crowley:  It’s something that we responded to when we realized it was a problem.  It didn’t take long.  I think that’s probably a truism, generally speaking, in customer support.  I mean, in a lot of cases, data is important and the ability to collect data is obviously very important.  But I think most companies probably find that the information about what your customers care about is pretty much there under your nose if you’re willing to spend just a little bit of time to find it.

So, it was very easy for us early on to identify, “Wow, these are some of the pain points that our customers have.”  And it’s a logical pain point too because customer service challenges tend to go along with logic.  So, we identified it reactively, so to speak, but it’s something that we acted to handle and address very quickly as well.

Andrea:  Mm-hmm.  So, would you mind sharing briefly the other three pillars?

Colin Crowley:  Sure.  So, aside from empathy and what we call outgoing, we also focus on interactions being clear, which we define as the agent making sure that they are fully understanding what the customer’s needs are.  Because sometimes there could be ambiguity there, and if you don’t appropriately ask questions or appropriately understand what the customer needs, you can’t really address their concerns well.

So, making sure that the agent understands the customer’s concerns and also making sure in their response that they’re very clear; so removing unnecessary clutter from the communication, and not overwhelming the customer with information they may not need.  And also, just making sure that – digitally speaking – if you’re writing an email to someone that it’s presented in such a way where it isn’t just this huge paragraph, but rather information is broken down where it’s more digestible.

Another pillar we have is a professional pillar, as we call it, which encompasses more of the standard QA type of stuff that a lot of companies engage in where we’re looking at spelling, and grammar, and syntax, and things of that nature.  And we have certain standards as to what we expect from agents there and very typical phone etiquette.  For example, also included under that last pillar we have is rational, which is to say we always want our agents to talk up and not down to customers, and explain to customers the reason that they may be limited in being able to assist so that we’re not just sitting there quoting policy at people, but we’re making sure that we’re explaining what we can and cannot do.  And being honest and upfront in what we can and cannot do for them.

Andrea:  Those are great.  When you were first creating these pillars, was there…  Do you have any tips for people who are looking at creating their own or refining their own?  Do you have any specific things that you would suggest people look at?

Colin Crowley:  Well, I think it’s definitely true that to some extent those pillars are relatively universal, where I think most organizations would discover that being clear, and being empathetic, and being professional and proactive, etcetera are all important characteristics of good customer support.  But where I think it really may change from company to company is the weighting on where your emphasis is.

So, for instance, for us, empathy is important, to be outgoing and being proactive is very important, which is why they exist in separate pillars.  And the fact that they exist as separate pillars is relevant because in our scoring system the pillars are all given equal weight, but you may have other companies that, you know, being outgoing is important.  But there are other aspects of the service that are more important, especially if you’re in a very highly regulated, very sensitive field like a medical field or finance or what have you.

So, I can envision that in those particular cases, you may have other things that you want to weight appropriately, which are better justified as a pillar.  So, I think it’s less that the principles are different and it’s more how you weight where your concerns are, because how you weight the concerns not only impacts how you handle scoring, but it also impacts what agents see because agents know what pillars we rate them on.  And so, what we choose as pillars also is what is essentially a branded into the minds of agents as to what we overarchingly care about as an organization.  So, it also helps to direct the people handling customer inquiries as to what you care most about as an organization.

Andrea:  Okay.  So, I know that Freshly is particularly good at cross-functional communication.  Maybe in particular with your marketing department and customer experience departments; I’m curious, how do you guys pull together and do this cross-function communication well?

Colin Crowley:  We adopt an approach that encourages what I would basically call a liaison with other departments and teams.  So, as an example, one area which is relevant for a lot of companies now, because even companies that are brick and mortar stores now have an e-commerce component – so more and more companies, and more and more customer service departments are dealing with people in the product world and people in engineering to get anything done.

So, we have someone in the department who is our kind of niftily titled Associate Director of Infrastructural Efficiency.  And his job is to serve as a conduit between the customer support world, and the engineering and the product world, where typically in a lot of companies, it’s very easy to have a wall that exists between customer support and engineering and product – and of course, customer support, really, and anyone; but, especially, when it comes to engineering and product.

So, this gentleman, who served as a supervisor for many years with us, has a great understanding of customer support operations.  So, he brings that with him, and then he went through project management training.  So, he also understands the nature of project management and he’s able to bring the customer support knowledge with him to serve as our voice in product and engineering discussions when it comes to our backlog, and items to prioritize, and various innovations to our backend order management system.  And he, in turn, also works to coordinate more granular feedback.

So, we have this thing called pod, where customer support agents in all our locations can raise their hand and volunteer to be a member of this pod where they are given like sneak peak access, so to speak, at some of the technological developments coming down the pipe, be these changes to our website or changes to our backend order management system or anything of that nature.  And they have the ability to test run those and to provide comments on them from a customer support perspective.  So, maybe they notice that, you know, this feature could be confusing to customers based on our knowledge of what customers need.

So, they’re able to provide ground-level feedback to product people and engineers who otherwise would not have such an easy way to get that feedback, and at the same time, these agents – because they have a sneak-peek into these different innovations – they’re also able to be used as trainers when these changes go live.  So, they can be there to assist other agents on the ground in understanding the nature of any new features that are premiered and make the learning curve a little less steep.  So that model has been very successful with us in terms of bridging the gap.

Andrea:  How do you choose the people… or you said that they volunteered themselves to be in the pod?

Colin Crowley:  Yes.  In the case of the agents, they volunteer.  So, it’s on a quarterly basis.  So, every quarter, we send out an invitation for agents to raise their hands.  And they have to go through, like, not a too onerous application process, but they do have to spend some time explaining why they would be a good candidate to be in this pod.  And, you know, we’re looking for people who had opinions, and we’re looking for people who are good at expressing opinions.  And we’re looking for people who have some degree of tenure; if not with us, just with customer service generally, so they’d be a good advocate or voice for the customer.

And of course, we’re looking for people across our different offices, because we know that different people in different locations can bring different observations to the field.  So, it’s literally a form that agents fill out, and they volunteer themselves, and there’s an internal discussion as to who would be best suited.  And when you’re chosen, you’re in the position of being in this pod for a quarter.  And you can reapply at the end of the quarter if you so desire, but at least it gives the opportunity for new people to join the fray and to have their voice heard.

Andrea:  Have you had any feedback from the people that have participated in pods in the past and their sense of loyalty or importance of how they feel about Freshly?

Colin Crowley:  Oh yeah, definitely.  I would say that it’s a huge benefit in a lot of ways aside from the informational benefit I mentioned where people in product and engineering get more on the ground feedback from people who actually deal with customers.  But yeah, it is definitely a morale booster for agents because it’s very typical at a lot of organizations where customer support people are kind of isolated in the corner someplace and aren’t particularly consulted on much.  And it’s not particularly unusual for customer support people to feel less valued than other people in an organization.

So, having something like this is really important because it helps these agents not to feel isolated and really to feel that they’re part of a larger organization with a larger purpose and a common objective.  And it also helps, of course, because it enables people to feel that rather than just being reactive… which customer support people often feel is their lot in life because they’re dealing with issues from customers that are the result of changes made by someone in product or someone in marketing, or someone someplace else.

So, you kind of get this overwhelming feeling that you’re at the bottom of the hill, and everything’s flowing down to you, and there’s not much you can do to change that.  This really puts them… not really in the driver’s seat, but it put them in the passenger seat at least, where you have the ability to impact what the company is doing and some of the decisions its making.

Andrea:  Yeah, I really love that.  I love that it also sounds like [it] kind of gives them the sense that their voice really does matter in not just with a particular customer, but within the context of the whole organization.

Colin Crowley:  Definitely, definitely.  And especially as, you know, like I said, our customer support organization is laid out all over the place.  So, it’s not like even within Freshly we have one location where our customer support people live and breathe, but rather we have New York, we have Arizona and then we have two locations abroad.  And even within the US, we have many people who work remotely, and I think that’s true in more and more companies.  I mean, especially now, unfortunately, as a result of COVID-19, we have so many people working remotely.

But that’s just a truism for a lot of companies, and that just creates more challenges for anyone in an organization, but especially customer support people to feel that they’re a part of something larger.  So we’ve found getting more customer support involvement through this pod process and through having designated liaison to the different areas of the business has been very successful.

Andrea:  Yeah, it sounds great.  Okay, so then another practical question.  How do they receive this information and share back their ideas?  Is this through a virtual medium?  Is that through a group, or how do you do that?

Colin Crowley:  Right.  It’s usually through scheduled meetings weekly or bi-weekly.  And of course, we make a lot of use of instant messaging.  So, some of the feedback that agents provide when they’re testing a new product is through instant messaging; or if one of our product managers has an open question, then he’ll ask it broadly in a special instant messaging channel we have, specifically for this pod, and he’ll be able to get responses from the agents.  So, it’s usually either through meetings for more official types of communications – like the premiering a new product or what have you – and then in between, there’s a lot of messaging back and forth.

Andrea:  So, if giving people the opportunity to share their ideas and share their ideas with other people in other areas of the company is an important thing for you, how does that work when you’re training managers or directors?  What are the kinds of characteristics do you look for in somebody when you’re hiring?  And then also, do you have any particular things that you do to encourage them in these in this area?

Colin Crowley:  Well, I would say one thing, which has definitely been consistently true…  And this is true even of our hiring practices for agents, I would say as well is that we traditionally haven’t looked for people who are solely backgrounded in like call centers or contact centers.  We found that the ideal candidate – and again, this is true for managers too – is generally someone who has some sort of mix between the two, where they have a background in contact centers so they can appreciate some of the nuances and context in our policy.

Like attendance policy, as an example, which – if you’re not coming from the industry – can appear too strict and too stringent, but makes sense if you understand the industry.  So, that’s important, to get that ground-level understanding, but it’s also important to get someone who spent time outside the contact center because it’s true that a lot of contact centers may not be the best environments.

So, people can become very jaded being in the contact center environment too much in a company that didn’t particularly invest a lot in their customer service people.  So, we also want to make sure that we get people with experience that’s a little bit broader from that.  So, as a result, we try to have a balance between those two characteristics.

The gentleman who is the Associate Director for Infrastructural Efficiency, he’s someone who has a background in customer service, but it wasn’t initially in the commerce space but rather more in the face to face customer service space.  So, he had great knowledge and great understanding of customer support, even though it wasn’t in an e-commerce context.  And he also had a background in sports management, so a different field outside of customer support.  So, it’s kind of a good example of someone who has a good balance.

I think another thing, broadly speaking is – especially when it comes to managers – looking for people who are just good at relating to other people generally.  Because a lot of the goals we’ve set for our leaders to remove organizational silos really depends on people being good team players, and good team players meaning that they have the ability to build relationships and communicate their point of view, but also understand the point of view of others.  And that, of course, is a quality you can’t really train someone, per se, or at least it’s very difficult to train them.  So, there’s been a big emphasis on choosing leaders who are at heart very collaborational and who show a history of being collaborational in their past, I would say.

Andrea:  Well, this has been really good.  I feel like there are many other questions I could keep asking you, Colin.  Let me kind of close with this particular question.  When you think about yourself, you think about the people that you look to as a voice of influence in your own life, do you have any particular advice for somebody who really does want to have a voice of influence?

Colin Crowley:  Yes, I think a few things that I would say are pretty key… the first is, broadly speaking, you have to know what you’re talking about.  And I would define that specifically as having some sort of balance between being a manager, so you’re not in the weeds, but at the same time making sure that you connect yourself to on the ground realities because you really need a balance of both to be able to go and advocate for your organization when it matters.  Because if you’re too far above the weeds and too much in strategy, then you’ll miss the operational nuances that are essential for your organization to smooth functionally and not appropriately represent those when it matters.  And of course, if you’re too much in the weeds, then you can’t see the big picture and you won’t be taken seriously when it comes to the larger strategic meetings.

So, you really need someone who strategically maintains certain anchors in on the ground realities.  I would say a second thing is you really have to focus a good deal on data if you want to have a voice of influence; because the great thing about data is if it’s done correctly, data is like a universal language.  So, it’s a bit like music to some extent where you can have English, and French, and Spanish, etcetera; and you can get a bunch of people in a room and they can’t communicate together, but music is universal.  And data is universal – where if you start talking about values and principles and theories with someone who’s in marketing or product and engineering, then you’ll get all sorts of different opinions in certain areas that are crucial.

But when you talk data, data is like a common language where as long as you’re tracking the right data points and you can make a case with data, you can get across to someone your position much better than if you argue theory.  So that also is another important thing.  I would say the last thing that strikes me as being pretty key is really to be a good listener.  I think a lot of people [who] lose their ability to have a voice of influence, that they spend too much time talking.

And I would say this not only with colleagues in different departments… which, of course, is important to listen so you understand where they’re coming from, because sometimes a lot of communication challenges are created because there’s just a lack of understanding of someone else’s position and the relevance of that position.  But also being a good listener within your organization so that people under you are able to surface the issues that matter and then have a substantive impact in on the ground reality.

So, if you have a good understanding of that and you’re willing to listen, it puts you in a much better position to be able to speak and makes other people more likely to listen to you in turn because they register that you’re taking their concerns seriously.

Andrea:  Love it.  Okay, Colin, is there any place that you would like to direct the listener to either find Freshly or even follow you?

Colin Crowley:  Definitely.  Firstly, it’s nice and easy, freshly.com.  We’re up and running and doing very, very well during this period of time.  And we know especially now with the COVID-19 that the interest in getting healthy meals delivered to your door is more frequent than ever.  So, you can visit us right there, and we’d be honored to have people sign up.  I’m freely available on LinkedIn, so people are more than happy to message me and connect, and I’d be happy to start some great conversations.

Andrea:  Great!  And we will link to that all those things in the show notes as well.  Thank you so much for being a voice of influence for our listeners today, Colin.

Colin Crowley:  Thank you.  I appreciate it.