Finding Her True Voice After Domestic Violence with Naghmeh Panahi

Naghmeh Panahi is a speaker, a Bible teacher, and an executive director for the TAF Foundation; an organization that helps abused women escape and recover religiously motivated violence, both in the form of domestic violence and in the form of religious persecution.

Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then-husband and pastor at the time, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. Unfortunately, her story is not an easy one to hear because it turns out that she was in an abusive marriage, and eventually they got divorced.

In this episode, Naghmeh shares her story, the complexities that go with what it’s like to be in a situation of oppression, the complex reasons why it’s so hard to get out, the importance of siding with the oppressed instead of staying silent, and her advice on being a voice of influence in a diverse setting.

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Transcript

Well, I am really honored to share with you the story of Naghmeh Panahi. She is a speaker, a Bible teacher, and executive director for the TAF Foundation – she’s going to pronounce it for you in a little bit. It is an organization which helps abused women escape and recover religiously motivated violence, both in the form of domestic violence and in the form of religious persecution.

Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then husband and pastor at the time, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. She’s going to tell us all about the story.

But, unfortunately, it’s not a story that is easy to hear because it turns out that she was in an abusive marriage, and eventually they got divorced. I’m really looking forward to hearing her story and understanding the complexities that go with what it’s like to be in a situation of oppression and the complex reasons why it’s so hard to get out. So, she’s going to share with us her story. She’s going to talk about the importance of siding with the oppressed instead of staying silent and then her advice on being a voice of influence in a diverse setting.

I think that you are going to really appreciate this conversation with Naghmeh Panahi.

Andrea: All right, Naghmeh, it is such an honor to have you here with us on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Naghmeh Panahi: Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Andrea: So, you stepped into the international spotlight when your husband was imprisoned in Iran. Would you mind sharing with our listeners how that unfolded and kind of how it led to what you’re doing today?

Naghmeh Panahi: Yeah. My husband had traveled to Iran, and I got a call that he had been arrested because of his faith and my whole world crumbled. My husband was literally my world. I’d come from a very hard marriage, but I guess my marriage had become my everything where my husband actually controlled everything from the way I thought, the way I dressed, who I saw, who I didn’t see. He became the center of my world. And so at that time, it just felt like I couldn’t even function without him.

And, so, I did everything I could do to get him out and started with being on the news a few times a week – Fox News, CNN – and then people start seeing me on TV, and Congress started contacting me. I spoke in front of our Congress three times. I traveled the world. I spoke at the United Nation. I spoke at human rights groups. President Obama actually flew to Boise, Idaho where I lived, and I met with him. I met the heads of states. I mean, just three and a half years I did everything to get him out of prison. And, you know, I had two small kids at that time. They were toddlers – they were four and five – and I really believed they needed their father and tried to do everything to get him out of prison.

And interesting enough, his imprisonment is what set me free from my abusive marriage, and that’s a story in itself. But it was through him being separated from me for so long that I started gaining confidence. Because before he went to prison, I really believed that I was worthless, that I couldn’t think properly, and that I was crazy, “the crazy-making” as he would call it in domestic abuse. I believed all of that, which is interesting because, when I met him, I was a very independent businesswoman. I had no self-image issues. The marriage had really brought me down to a place of complete destruction where I had no self-worth. I believed all the lies.

And, so, when he went to prison, it gave me space and time and a lot of prayers and reflections, self-reflection, and I know as a Christian, my time with God that really set me free to say, “Wait a minute, that’s not what God says I am. That’s not who God says I am.” And it really set me free and it was an interesting journey.

Towards the end of his imprisonment, my husband got a phone – a Smartphone – inside of the Iranian prison. Before he went to prison, there was beating; me getting beat up, my dad, my dog destruction of property, possible infidelity, even though I didn’t want to face it. Very clear… I closed my eyes to a lot of things. I didn’t want to believe that.

But I believed that if I fought and I proved to my husband that I loved him so much, he would love me back. And towards the end of his imprisonment, he got a phone and I noticed he had not only changed, he was different. He was even an angrier person. He definitely had PTSD. He had paranoia. But he was angry that I was traveling the world and he was calling me the same names, “Worthless,” – I’m sorry to say, but – “ whore, Jezebel, don’t think you’re valued. Don’t think just because you’re traveling the world and people are clapping, they’re clapping for you.” He would say, “They’re clapping for me. I’m the hero. I’m the one in prison.”

And, so, I was shocked because I had literally laid down my life to get him out of prison, including putting my kids’ wellbeing after him. I was a single mom of two kids. I got death threats because I traveled, because I spoke out against Iranian government and their abuse of human rights issues, and I continued to do that to get him out. I had serious anxiety getting on airplanes. I grew up in Iran where there was war, and airplanes meant bombs and war. And, so, I had always struggled getting on an airplane, but I would get on airplanes every single time with anxiety and I would say, “I’m doing it for my husband.”

So, I knew I was laying down my life and loving him to the best of my ability, and to have him still call me those names from prison just was a wake-up call that this marriage is not going to get any better, no matter how much I try. It’s just not, and that’s when, really, I was set free. I didn’t know it was abuse. I couldn’t put my finger on it. I knew I had a hard marriage, but I couldn’t figure out… I felt dark. It felt foggy, but I couldn’t figure it out until on a last trip, I was speaking at a church and I finally, for the first time, shared everything with this pastor and his wife.

Now, as someone who comes out of domestic abuse, you’re groomed to hide your spouse’s flaws. You wouldn’t dare tell anyone about your issues or that he had any flaws. So, I had learned to do that to kind of cover-up for him. For the first time, I shared it with someone and this pastor looked at me, and he said, “Do you know I’m a doctor?” And I said, “No.” He said, “Yeah, I got my doctorate in psychology.” And he looked at me and he said, “You’re an abused wife. And it’s like getting a cancer. You know there’s something wrong with your body and you don’t know what it is, and a doctor says, ‘Oh, it’s cancer and it’s deadly.’”

And for the first time it had a name and it made sense, because then I googled about abuse and all the signs of how a person tries to control another person, he pretty much met every single checklist. And I was shocked because I thought I was the only one experiencing the isolation the being put down, the… just everything, the deflection and the gaslighting, all of that. And I thought I was the only one experiencing it. And then when there was a name put to what I was going through, it just all came together and I realized, “This is not an incident after incident. This is actually a diagnosis of bigger issue called abuse, called cancer, and this is deadly if I don’t do something about it.”

I was already a dead person before he went to prison. I was a robot. I did everything he said. I couldn’t show any emotion. If I cried, he would say, “You’re trying to manipulate me.” If I showed anger, he would say, “You’re the abusive person.” So, I had learned to become a robot with no emotion and just do everything he told me. I was a slave, a servant. And, so, when it got a name, when the name abuse came, I was like… It just all made sense. And I knew that I couldn’t just close my eyes to it anymore. And that it was not only deadly for me, it was deadly for my kids. I would not want my son to know that this is okay to treat a woman like this, to treat another human being like this. And I didn’t want my daughter to know that it was ever okay to be treated that way.

Andrea: Hmm, so, at what point… I mean, this is so poignant, and I think a lot of people are going to be able to relate to this, and the feeling of, “Oh gosh, I didn’t even realize this is what it was.” But what point did that really hit you, in what point in your story and in the arc of your husband coming back and all of that?

Naghmeh Panahi: Well, actually, before he came back, I drew my first boundary. And even before the pastor told me it was abuse, I was traveling the world three or four times a month, trying to get him out, and he would call me all sorts of names. He was controlling everything from where I went, what I said, and money that was coming in. He was controlling everything from prison towards the end. It was pretty amazing that he had a Smartphone in an Iranian prison. Like, he could actually FaceTime me. It was shocking to me, but I think that was a good thing for me. At first I was like, “If he didn’t have access to me, I would fight hard for him.” But every time he would poison me, I had to be like, “I’m gonna be a bigger person. I’m gonna still fight for him even though he’s, like, kicking me from prison, verbal abuse and emotional abuse and control.”

But I’m glad I got to see who he was from prison because it was my wake-up call to say, “Oh my goodness, he’s not getting any better.” So, before he came out, I actually drew boundaries. I said, “If you can’t be nice to me then I can’t talk to you. Because I want to be able to fight to get you out of prison, and every time you spew out these hateful things to me, I get bitter. And I have to work through that bitterness and I have to work through forgiving you, and then I have to put on a front and try to do an interview to try to get you out.” I said, “I can’t talk to you if you can’t be nice to me.” And he never called again, never. All it would have taken was him to call back and say, “I’m sorry, I want to be nice to you,” and he didn’t.

So, he didn’t actually call me at all, even when he got released from prison. State Department contacted me, and I’d heard on the news he was released January 16th, 2016. And State Department told me… I called them and I said, “I heard he’s released from media.” It was all over media, BBC, CNN, Fox, everything. And they said, “Yeah, but they’re still in the country,” these Americans that were taken hostage, including my husband, “So, we don’t want to really say anything until they’re out because last minute the Iranian government could pull back and not let them leave.”

Long story short, they got out, took about a day and they flew into Germany where he was evaluated, you know, mentally and physically, which I never found out what that evaluation was because he wouldn’t allow me to have access. He didn’t call me then. And here I was seeing all over the news, he was talking to all these big names like Franklin Graham, and everyone was sharing how they talk to Saeed, to my husband, and he hadn’t called me. And because that had been my boundary was like, “If you can’t be nice to me, don’t call me,” and he didn’t.

So, I told him that in October of 2015. November is when I went to that church and the pastor told me I was an abused wife. And in my, I guess, mental breakdown, I wrote an email in November of 2015 saying, “I’m an abused wife. I’ve had access to Saeed in prison. He’s still abusing me.” And then this went viral, and then there was news that covered it… Washington Post covered, Fox… I mean, there was a lot of media covered it. And so he heard about it, of course, he had access to the Smartphone. So, he was mad at me, and that was another reason, you know, when he got out, he didn’t call me.

Finally, his sister messaged me and said, “This is his phone number in Germany. He doesn’t want to talk to you. He just wants to talk to the kids.” I was like, “Okay.” So, I called him, he was very angry at me. And it was an interesting phone call, to say the least, but that was our first phone conversation. And you know what, the first thing I was accused of when I drew boundaries with my husband was that I was cheating on him. I was throwing him under the bus, because I was with another man, which was ridiculous, because to this day my husband was the first man I ever kissed, I ever held hands with. And we’ve been divorced for three years now, I still haven’t dated. So, to be accused of that was just really painful.

And, so, he asked me, he said, “Have you cheated on me?” And I said, “No.” And I asked him, because now things have come to light that I was sure he had cheated on me in our marriage, and he said, “Well, I’m not gonna answer that because you’re gonna use it against me.” And long story short, he got out. He still ignored me. He ignored me for months. It took a court order in order to have him communicate with me because when he got out, I was so scared. He had serious paranoia, serious PTSD.

He was an abusive person who had already almost beat me to death early on in our marriage and I was scared of him, of what he was going to do. And he had threatened me when I called them in Germany that he was going to come and take the kids from me. I called a lawyer and they said, “Oh, yeah, they can do that. He’s still their father. Unless you have a protective order and legal separation…” I didn’t want a divorce. I was hoping that our marriage was going to heal. But the lawyer said, “Unless you do this, he can come and take the kids.” And, so, I did that.

About a week, I was told I should go to a marriage counseling – which again, for abuse, you do not encourage women who come out of abuse to go to marriage counseling because their abuser is so manipulative, so deceptive. It’s dangerous for them to be in the same room with them and going through marriage counseling, but I was kind of being forced to do that. It was all over the media that I was going to go to the Billy Graham Center and do marriage counseling and make it up with Saeed, and I just didn’t. I ended up talking to abuse counselors, and it was not a good idea. So, I didn’t go. I ended up staying in Boise.

One morning, I got a call from Reuters, saying, “Oh, how do you feel? Your husband’s flying to Boise.” And I was like, “What?” So, it was about a week after his release, it was late January. He’d been released January 16th. He’d kind of stayed in Germany a few days, and then he’d gone to the North Carolina at the Billy Graham Center for about a few days, about three or four days. And then he surprise-flew into Boise, with Franklin Graham’s private jet. And I was like, beside myself, I was so scared. I didn’t know when he was going to land. I didn’t know what was going to happen.

And I called my lawyer, she said, “He can come now. He’s on a private jet. He could just put the kids on the private jet and leave, and you would have to fly to wherever he’s at and then try to figure out how you’re gonna get your kids back.” So, that day, I filed for a protective order for me, not the kids – but supervised visits for the kids – and legal separation, hoping that it was going to prevent him from taking the kids and that I was going to be safe until we could talk through it for our marriage and make it work. And that was the best thing I did because that’s exactly what he had planned.

But unfortunately, the media just went with it, and they made it sound like this poor persecuted Christian comes home and his wife files for divorce, which I didn’t. I filed for a legal separation. And no one really understood what I was going through. This man was after me. He had suffered a great deal in prison as well. He had severe PTSD. He saw me as his enemy, and I became the bad guy who had to file for legal separation and protection order for a hero that was coming back home.

It was heartbreaking because people were making judgments without knowing what had happened throughout our marriage. So that’s how it unfolded. Basically, I asked that he would get help on the abuse. And the moment he realized that I wasn’t going to submit to any of that behavior anymore, he filed for divorce and he divorced me April of 2017, which was heartbreaking. I had people around me say, “Well, you’re free! You’re free!” You know, because of my religious views, I thought God hated divorce so bad that I was willing to stay in that marriage and be separated for as long as possible – even if I grew old – until he repented, until he changed his behavior.

But he divorced me, and at that time I saw it like, it was very painful because I felt like, “I fought for you for three and a half years, day and night to get you out of prison, and you come out and you divorce me when all I’m asking you is let’s talk and you can’t beat me anymore and you can’t cheat on me anymore. And you’re not even willing to go see abuse counselors, try to work on our marriage a little bit after your wife literally laid down her life.” It was painful that he didn’t even want to fight for our marriage. He’d lost his slave. He’d lost someone who had been completely obedient to him, and he could walk all over me. He could cheat on me. I wouldn’t believe anyone but him. If he said, “I didn’t cheat on you,” I’d say, “Oh, I believe you.”

He had complete control over me, and he had lost that and he was done with me. It was painful to feel that. There was no love. He didn’t even want to fight for our marriage. You know, that was a shattered dream. I turned 40 and then a month and a half later, my divorce became final and I’m like, “Here I am at 40, two kids, broken home.” I was devastated. I was still trying to get my mind around what was happening with the abuse, and then all the travels I’d done. It just felt like I was sitting down in the middle of this destroyed building with rubble around me, and I didn’t know how I was going to get back up. But I did.

And today, I am a much stronger, happier person than I was even in my twenties, you know. Sometimes you think back, “What if I could go back in my twenties and I made a different choice and I had a better marriage?” And I look back, I’m like, “No, I love this journey I was on because it helps me understand what abused women or actually, anyone who’s gone through abuse or oppression goes through, and it has given me a heart for those who are abused.” The people who are supposed to serve them are abusing their power and oppressing them. And it has given me a heart of compassion instead of heart of judgment, and it has made me a better person.

I would say, it’s transformed me from a caterpillar to a butterfly, and I couldn’t be happier. So, I wouldn’t go back and I’m actually at a much better place, but I couldn’t see that three years ago. I couldn’t see how I was going to get out of this rubble. It just seemed like destruction, and there was no light at the end of the tunnel. That’s how I felt three years ago.

Andrea: Hmm, devastating. It’s so devastating, and to think that he would betray you like that. And not only him, but then everybody who had been applauding you and cheering for you. And as you are going on this campaign to get him released from prison, I can’t imagine the devastation you must have felt to realize that people weren’t believing you.

Naghmeh Panahi: Yeah, and you know, women who’ve gone through sexual assault or abuse or anyone that kind of we saw with #MeToo movement, usually when you’re at the forefront of that and you’re calling out someone with a big name or someone who’s in the place of power, people question you, question your character, and don’t believe you. And so at first, it was hard that people did that. But then I was like, “You know what, I’m so glad because that’s how every woman who has come out feels.” And I’m glad I felt that. Now, I know how painful it is for people to judge you and to question you and say you’re a liar and question your character. And also, it actually helped me get free of people-pleasing. I needed to have the whole world turn against me to go, “Okay, it does it matter? Does it really matter that much, or does it matter that I do the right thing?”

It was really hard because I am a people-pleaser. And I think, you know, a lot of women who are people-pleasers stay in these abusive marriages because you want to please. And so God just got rid of all that for me and said, “What matters to you? Do you care what people say or you’re going to live your life the way that’s truth, that’s right even if the whole world thinks you’re a bad person? Does that matter?” And I had to come to the decision of, “Nope, you know, it doesn’t matter.” And, you know, I would have probably cried and told you that three years ago we’ve talked. It was hard. People abandoned me. People judged me. Not only did they abandon me, they kicked me.

It’s like the Good Samaritan story where there was a bleeding person. People passed by; not only did they pass by, they kicked me and threw all sorts of stones and hurled all sorts of accusations against me. But again, I’m thankful because now I understand how other people feel when they come out, and people just throw stones at them instead of being compassionate and loving. And also, it really helped me get over the people-pleasing that was destructive in my life.

Andrea: And really, that people-pleasing, you know, to lay that down, to have that leave or for you to leave it seems to have really empowered your voice for you to be able to speak up now and do what you’re doing with the TAF Foundation. Can you tell us some about that?

Naghmeh Panahi: Yeah, it did. It’s interesting because I was silenced in my marriage. And to have been given a microphone because he was in prison, and then for God to really give me a microphone for women who are oppressed and abused has been pretty amazing. So, I do want to say, just to clarify, I had to learn – it was through my relationship with God – that God hates what’s happening to the person in abuse more than he hates the divorce. So, when I realized that God hated what was happening to me, He was not happy about me submitting to abuse and oppression and all of that, it really changed my view of God. And it was so eye-opening that a high view of marriage includes divorce. It’s okay. God is actually more concerned about the person.

You know, as a Christian, I believe Jesus came to save us, but He didn’t come to save the marriage, He came to save a person. One person matters to Him. So, the wellbeing, the mental health, physical health, wellbeing of a woman or whoever is being abused, oppressed, is more important to Him than the institution of marriage. And it was so eye-opening for me to learn that. But when I came out of it, women started contacting me about what they were going through.

And my co-founder, Mariam Ibraheem, contacted me – and I’ve shared her story – and she had come out of prison in Sudan. She was on death row because of her faith, and she had come out to only end up in a very dark, abusive marriage. Well, I had met her in 2014. She had just come out of prison in 2014. I was traveling to get my husband out, and then in 2018, she contacted me. So, we’ve been talking back and forth over the years for four years. Well, 2018 she contacted me and she said, “I need help.” She said, “What I’m going through in my marriage right now is worse than being on death row and tortured by radicals in the Sudanese prison,” where she actually gave birth to her daughter under very hard conditions in Sudan.

She said, “The domestic abuse I’m going through right now is worse, because it’s from within. The attack is from within, and it’s so hard to see.” And, so, I ended up helping bring her out of that, and then our foundation was formed. We didn’t want to share our story. I mean, people knew about mine, but Mariam didn’t really come out about her domestic stuff until recently. So that’s how me and Mariam got together, and then we have another colleague that kind of joined us. But around the time I was talking to my colleagues, you know, we hadn’t formed TAF yet, which stands for Tahrir Alnisa Foundation; which tahrir means freedom, liberation, and then alnisa in Arabic means woman – so liberating woman.

And before we started it, I had a group of women contact me from Iran. One of them had been thrown in prison, few had fled to the country of Turkey because of their Christian faith, and so, I really wanted to help them. And I reached out to my friend, Mariam and I said, “What can we do?” And she said, “Well, come to DC and let’s see if we can get some politicians involved, see what we can do for them.” I went to DC and pretty much everyone told us, “Why don’t you guys start an organization? You can have a more powerful voice having an organization.”

Reluctantly, we started it, and it’s been about almost a year now. And, you know, the focus is woman – alnisa means woman – but to help woman who have dealt with abuse of power, whether it’s in a home or in a government that has abused its power. So, we address any abuse of power that a woman has gone through, whether it’s religious freedom or domestic abuse. Actually, a lot of these women who come out of religious persecution have also gone through domestic abuse. Unfortunately, a lot of these women that we work with in the Middle East, they have similar stories as me.

So, we help many, many women who are broken, who’ve come out of, you know, again, places of abuse of power, whether in a home or country. And we help them get back on their feet, find their true identity, their true value and become productive and help others to come to a place of healing. So, we have counselors. We work with different counselors, and we help them figure out how to get back on their feet with their kids and really be productive members of society.

Andrea: Hmm, that’s fantastic. So, can I ask you, would you mind sharing what are some of the systemic issues, the big issues that kind of keep a woman in an abusive situation within a religious culture? You mentioned one, which is this idea that divorce is the worst thing. If people believe that, then they’re going to stay in it. But other than that, what other kinds of things are involved in religious culture that keeps people in those abusive situations?

Naghmeh Panahi: I think, at large when there’s oppression and abuse, there’s something called reactive abuse where the person reacts and misbehaves also, and so that brings a lot of confusion. I have a lot of churches… and I think in society, they’re like, “Well, this person behaved badly, too.” You know, where they’re confused, they’re like, “We don’t know who to believe.” So, they don’t know who to believe. “Well, the wife was yelling too, and who’s the abuser here?” And, you know, we see in society, there’s oppression and then people behave in a bad way. So, they’re like, “Both parties are at fault.” No, there’s usually an oppressor and an oppressed.

Now, I did a video recently with Leslie Berg Vernick, who talks about abuse. And there’s something called reactive abuse where the person is being abused. That means there’s one person in place of power trying to control… Abuse is not just about physical abuse; it’s an imbalance of power. One person trying to control another person or, you know, there’s oppression and the person that’s being abused, oppressed, acts out. And, so, there’s confusion. Who do we believe? Who’s the abuser? So, because of lack of education of how abusers work and because they’re seeing both parties get angry, both parties throw things, people take their hands off. They’re like, “We don’t know whose fault, that person…” you know.

So, education of what does abuse really look like, what does it mean, and how do abusive people operate because they operate in such a way that you get confused, that you don’t even step in to defend the oppressed. But when you don’t step in, silence is actually you siding with the oppressor, you siding with the abuser. So, it’s kept a lot of churches silent because they’re like, “Well, God hates divorce.” So, as soon as a woman divorces, they walk away from that person. They don’t say, “Okay, why did you divorce?” “Okay, we can give you grace for that,” and try to understand what she’s going through. But also they don’t know who to believe because I don’t think we – as a society – we’ve really fully understood what an abusive person is and how they operate, whether at a larger in society or smaller in a home. So, we get confused because we see bad behavior on both sides.

So, education is key and then accountability because there’s always going to be abusers in society, whether in a home or outside of a home. So, you can’t really stop that. You can’t really stop… not have abusive people around. They’re always going to be there. But in a society or at home, where there’s accountability, where they’re like, “This is not allowed and there will be consequences,” then that’s when you can actually protect the oppressed. So, there has to be consequences where the police, our court systems understand abuse. They protect the woman and children. And because a lot of times abusers, really, they go to the churches and they say, “Well, my wife’s being abusive.” A lot of times they call the abused the abuser so that causes confusion, and then they call them crazy. Like, “My wife is crazy,” and people believe that.

So, I think a lot of why there’s inaction is because there’s confusion of, “Which side do I choose.?” You always choose the side of the oppressed. That’s the heart of God. You choose the side of the one who’s being oppressed, you know, and you call their oppressor to accountability and repentance. That’s the most loving thing you can do to them. You are accountable for your action. And that was my goal when I did that for my husband that when I drew boundaries and I called him to accountability, I was out of love. I still loved my husband. I still wanted healing. But that was the most loving thing I could do. I stopped being an enabler, and we need to first have clarity of who’s the oppressed, who’s the oppressor and what’s the right thing to do.

There’s no “two sides to every story” in a marriage where there’s abuse. There’s no “two sides of the story” when someone’s being oppressed in the society. There’s the oppressed that needs to be defended. That’s what Jesus did. The woman that was being accused of adultery, He didn’t say, “Oh, well, she did… yeah, she’s sinned too.” He protected the oppressed and then after everyone left, after everything was quiet, after she was protected, He said, “Go and sin no more.” So, you protect the one that’s being oppressed first. You don’t go, “Well, you’re a sinner too, so I don’t know who I’m gonna side with.” You protect the woman and children. You know, at times there’s men who are oppressed. You protect them and then you say, “Well, this area, don’t do this anymore.”

For me, the reason I stayed for so long and the area that I had to change and repent of was idolatry. I put something above God, and I was bowing down to it in fear and in my marriage, and I had to say, “You know what, I’m not gonna bow down to people-pleasing anymore. I’m not gonna bow down to this anymore. I need to change in that area.” But I had to be protected first. So, anyways, I think it’s really education of what does oppression mean, what does it look like, what does abuse look like, how does an oppressor or an abuser behave.

There are so much similarities of how they behave, and a lot of what they try to do is bring confusion, gaslighting, and deflection. Because they want confusion so people take their hands off and go, “Well, I don’t know who to trust. I don’t know who to protect.” That’s exactly what they want because when you take your hands off and you’re not protecting the oppressed, then they get their way. So, confusion is the biggest thing of why churches don’t get involved with domestic abuse. And one of the things we do is try to educate them that, “Here’s how you can see clearly and you are called to act.”

You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, “Silence in the face of evil is evil itself.” Like, just because you’re silent, it doesn’t mean you’re blank. You’re actually siding with the evil when you’re silent, when you’re not acting and so that’s a big issue. And why people are silenced is because they’re confused. They don’t know who to believe and once that confusion’s removed and they see that actually they have to act, not acting is siding with the oppressed, is siding with the evil then they get educated on that. Then they can act in a positive way of helping a system… create a system within a marriage, within a church, within the court systems where woman and children go for, you know, legal actions or divorce or whatever, where they can educate those systems and say, “Here’s how you see and this is how you keep the abuser accountable and protect the people that are being abused.”

Andrea: So, this is all so powerful and good, and you’re articulating it so well for us. Your ex-husband came back, and he was paraded around as a kind of a champion for the faith. I know that when somebody is kind of in that hero positioning, or they’re in a position where they’ve done so much good for your cause and yet they’re accused of abuse or you find out that… the people push back on that because he’s a hero, right? He’s a hero. What do you want to say to people who say, “But he did so much good?”

Naghmeh Panahi: You know, that’s the trap. I think over the years in history of humanity, we’ve submitted to dictators and abusive leaders and people because they’ve done so much. You know, you look at Hitler who’s doing so much for Germany and it’s the same way, you know. As a Christian, what really woke me up was God didn’t care. He doesn’t care about people doing so much. God cares about the character, you know. We read in the Bible that says in the last days many will say to Jesus, “But I prophesied in your name. I did miracles in your name. I did this.” And Jesus says, “Get away from me. I never knew you.”

And we get deceived by big actions and big things that are being done, and that was my trap. That’s how I was trapped in this marriage. My husband was very charismatic. And he was doing great stuff for God, but he lacked the character. And I turned off all the alarms that was saying, “Wait a minute, that’s not a good character. That’s off.” All the alarms that were like coming inside of me was saying, “Careful, careful, back away,” I was shutting them down, saying, “But look at all the stuff he’s doing.” And that was the trap.

If I have to warn anyone about anything is really, over history of humanity, we’ve fallen into this trap over and over again as people, as in marriages, and people end up in abusive marriages. It’s not because they’re dumb and not educated. There are a lot of educated people that fall into it is because we look at someone who does great things and we don’t look at their character, their humility. That’s a really dangerous when you do that. And abusive people are drawn to a place of power. They’re usually charismatic and in a place of power, and they usually do a lot of great stuff.

But as a Christian, I realized as my husband was in prison that God was like, “I don’t care about that. I can change a nation within a moment. I don’t look for people that can do great things for me. I’m looking for a humble, kind, loving person. If you don’t have love, nothing matters. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. If you can have love and compassion for your fellow human being, who cares [about] all the great things you’re doing.” All the dictators of the world have done amazing things for their people in their country, but they also killed millions, you know. Look at Russia; they killed the most voiceless, the most weak people of their country. Look at Germany, the Jews. I mean, they do great things, but they also do much evil.

Again, as a Christian, I look at the Bible and God doesn’t care about people that do great things. He cares more about the character of the person at home – are you loving your wife and children well? Are you humble? Are you reaching out to your neighbor? Are you being a person of peace instead of someone who causes rift and hatred and anger? What are you doing as a person? You might never do great things in your life, your name may never be known in society, but that doesn’t matter in God’s eye. If you’ve been faithful to where you’ve been, if you’ve been in Boise, Idaho, loving your neighbor, that’s what matters, even if you haven’t done “great things” for the world.

And I think that’s a deception we really need to be careful of. That’s what had me end up in an abusive marriage is the great things. I focused on the great things versus the character, versus is this person a loving, humble person? And I turned off all the alarms that said, “Nope, he’s not showing compassion here. He’s being cruel here.” And I closed my eyes because he was doing great things for God, you know?

Andrea: Do you think the people that were applauding him have had their eyes opened to any degree in the last few years?

Naghmeh Panahi: Yeah, I’ve had some people come back because at first, I tried to defend myself. I tried to explain, and then I really felt God telling me, “Just be quiet, let me defend you.” And as years went by, he showed his true colors and people were shocked that he was not the hero that he made out to be, and they came back and said, “We apologize, we judged you.” But there are people that are still following him and supporting him. And over time, it didn’t matter anymore. I didn’t really have to prove anything anymore.

But yeah, it was hard at the beginning because he was on the news, and he was a hero that had come out of prison, I was the bad person. I didn’t do a good job of shutting my mouth. I tried to explain to people that I was telling the truth, but then after a few months, I said, “You know what, Okay, I’m done. I don’t need to explain to people. People-pleasing needs to be out of my life.” You know, it’s a struggle all the time, but I got rid of that. God got rid of that in me a lot. We all still struggle with people-pleasing and how people view us, but I just had to let it go and say, “Okay, people are gonna worship him no matter what. There are some people that are gonna do that.” But I’ve had a lot of people turn around and say, “We see what you’re saying now.”

Andrea: Now, you and Mariam, you guys seem to have some diverse background in terms of cultural context, and the people that you work with. Is that true?

Naghmeh Panahi: Yes, it’s just beautiful. I love it. She grew up in Africa. I grew up in the Middle East, and totally different cultures, different worlds. Her mom is Ethiopian, they went to Sudan, I think as refugees. She grew up as a refugee and her life experience is just so powerful, you know, and then she came to America in 2014. But most of her life was spent in Africa. And for me, a third of my life, you know, a fourth of my life now was spent in Iran. And we come from two different cultures, but she’s a sister. And our other co-founder, she’s American with a European background. We just get along. We love each other. We support each other, and that’s been the most beautiful thing I’ve found through this journey.

When I was in my marriage, I couldn’t have any friends. I was isolated. And when I came out of it, God has given me so many good girlfriends, and to think we were all raised… Like, our other colleague who co-founded this with us, she was raised in America, I was raised in the Middle East, and Mariam was born and raised in Africa. And for us to get together and really enjoy our differences… I mean, we’ve had to learn to communicate because we just communicate differently because I was born in Iran and raised, you know, in a different culture.

But as we learned, we’ve really enjoyed our differences. They’ve really enriched my life to talk to women that are different. We have another colleague working with us, she’s Hispanic. And that diversity has been so beautiful. I’ve enjoyed it so much and to just be friends with other women that are not like me and we can learn from each other and we can grow with each other, and we can just love each other. And we all come from different political backgrounds, political ideas, but it doesn’t bother us.

I mean, we have super conservative, we have liberal, we all stand on different issues in a different way, but we can just talk in a very, you know, peaceful way and we get along. We love each other. There’s no resentment because one person believes, you know… I guess, leans towards a certain party and the other leans towards another party. It’s just beautiful, because we’re so different, but we really enjoy that difference and I think that’s what America is about. That’s what I love about America. When I came to America, it’s like, there’s so many people of different backgrounds and you just can go, “Oh!” I love learning the Chinese culture and going to Chinatown, eating there. I didn’t have that in Iran. I just had Iranian, Iranian, Iranian.

Here, I came here, there was, like, Hispanic and Chinese and this. I love that. In Iran, it was just Iranian. There were some Afghanis that would come here and there, but the culture… and then, again, this organization, we’re all different women with different backgrounds, different political thoughts and ideas, and we just get along and we’re really good friends and I just love that. It’s so beautiful. It really enriches my life.

Andrea: So, when you think about those who’d like to be a Voice of Influence, to want to have a Voice of Influence – and perhaps with people who are being oppressed – but they’re from a different background, they’re from a different perspective, or they’re from a different culture, do you have anything that you would like to share with us about how we can best be a Voice of Influence in that kind of a situation?

Naghmeh Panahi: Yeah. I’m not an expert, but the way that has worked in my life, I’ve gotten my hands dirty. I’ve gone into communities. I remember, I’ve mentored people of low income, whether they were refugees from Middle East or African from Africa. I have always been in those communities. And the more I have been in them, the more it has changed me to see the world in a different perspective and not be afraid. I’ve actually brought people reluctantly into these refugee groups where there’s a lot of Muslims, and they’ve been afraid. But it’s been beautiful to bring them and say, “Okay, see, they’re not scary.” And it’s actually so beautiful there. You sit with them, the culture, they bring all sorts of food and Syrian…

Here in Boise, there are so many cultures. You wouldn’t believe that. It’s one of the refugee cities. But when you go into these neighborhoods and you see them for who they are, and they’re all sorts from all over Africa – from Sudan, from Ethiopia, from Eritrea, and you have Middle East – you have all over the world and you see how they interact, how they’re in each other’s houses. They eat together. So, I think it starts with to be able to influence you really need to understand and it’s just hanging out with them. It’s okay if you mess up culturally. I’ve messed up. I come from the Middle East, and I’ve made some really crazy mistakes with someone of a different culture, even Syrian culture. And I’m like, “Oops, sorry, I didn’t know that.” Just laugh it off, and they understand.

So, don’t be afraid of messing up or offending. They understand you weren’t born in their… I mean, I was born and raised for the first nine years of my life in Iran. I make cultural mistakes with Iraqis and Syrians all the time, and we’re with same region. So, you really need to get your hands dirty. You really need to be in communities.

When I was in college, I helped mentor some black kids and I would bring them to my college. I just went into the black communities. And at that time, you know, Tacoma, there was some racial tension. So, as someone from Middle East, I really put myself out there and really went into those black communities and made some really, really good friends, and it changed me as a person.

So, I think for me, being a Voice of Influence is you really have to be willing to get your hands dirty. You have to be willing to kind of mess up your schedule a little bit, you know. I think coming from a European background sometimes, as Americans, we can be like, “I have an opening right here.” Like, set up your time where it’s everything’s like lined up, but it’s like, what if you spend half a day in a refugee neighborhood? It might mess up your schedule, but if you want to be a Voice of Influence, just let your schedule be ruined for one day and just go hang out with these people and get to know them. It’s going to change you, and it’s going to change the way you interact, and it’s going to change the people around you. That’s what I think.

Andrea: I love that. Okay, so, Naghmeh, would you share with us how can people connect with you and TAF, and how would you point them to your resources?

Naghmeh Panahi: I have social media under Naghmeh Panahi – Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. And I think it’s harder to find our organization, but if you find me, you can kind of link into what our organization does. It’s Tahrir Alnisa Foundation, but if you type in Naghmeh Panahi, it’s going to all come up. I share stuff on social media quite a bit. I think we talked about a while ago about Leah, a girl who was abducted in Nigeria. We’ve done a prayer vigil for her.

So, we kind of focus on different things whether it’s religious freedom, women who’ve been oppressed in that way, or domestic abuse. And being a voice for them and not just through social media; we take actions, we have an advocacy. Part of what we do where we actually reach out to government officials and ask for change, and that’s one of our passions and goals is to see change in the way our government addresses domestic abuse and oppression.

So, over the year that we’ve started, we’ve met with many government officials and had very good talks. And we’ve had talks with our government, with the Vice President’s office, with the White House and a dialogue of how can we have a system that protects the oppressed and abused, and women can be believed and they can be protected and so can the children. So, you can look me up and hopefully you’ll learn more about what we do.

Andrea: Great, thank you so much! And we’ll link to that in the show notes too so that people can find you easily.

All right, thank you so much for being with us today, Naghmeh. You have a beautiful story. It’s tragically beautiful, but it’s so beautiful with such a redemptive ending…` and not that there’s an end to it yet, but a redemptive story that you have, that you’re telling. And I’m grateful that you could be a Voice of Influence for our listeners today.

Naghmeh Panahi: Thank you, Andrea. It’s just wonderful talking with you, and I appreciate you giving me this opportunity. Thank you!

Voice of Influence

Message-Driven Leadership

Finding Her True Voice After Domestic Violence with Naghmeh Panahi

Episode 146

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

Transcript