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Influence by nature is about affecting change and, if you’re interested in listening to this podcast episode, my guess is that you care about how to make change come to fruition. Luckily, this week’s guest is the perfect person to help you better understand how to do just that.
Travis McNeal is the Director of Change Management and Communications for Walmart’s supply chain. Travis and I both spoke at a conference, and when I saw his presentation about this case study of change management, I said: “I need to get him on the podcast.”
In this episode, we talk about a specific example of a digital change Walmart needed to make for truck drivers and why it is so quickly adopted, the importance of training and preparing managers for change, how to communicate that to them and finally, how humility really plays a large part in the ultimate success of adoption of a change, and more!
Take a listen to the episode below!
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. Now, influence by nature is really about affecting some kind of change. And if you’re listening to this podcast, my guess is that you do care about that. You care about how to make change actually come to fruition.
Well, today, I’m interviewing Travis McNeal, the Director of Change Management and Communications for Walmart’s supply chain. Travis and I both spoke at a conference, and when I saw his presentation about this case study of change management, I said, “I need to get him on the podcast.”
So, we’re going to talk today about a few different things, specific examples of a digital change that they needed to make for truck drivers, specifically, and why it is so quickly adopted. We’ll also be going to talk about the importance of training and preparing managers for change, and how to communicate that to them, and finally – and perhaps more importantly – we’ll be discussing how humility really plays a large part in the ultimate success of adoption of a change.
If you haven’t already, please subscribe to the Voice of Influence podcast. We’d love to hear from our listeners. So, if you would like to give us some feedback or contact us for any reason, we have a contact form on our website, voiceofinfluence.net. That is also where you will find the show notes for today’s episode.
Now, here’s my interview with Travis McNeal:
Andrea: Travis McNeil, it is great to have you here on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Travis McNeal: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.
Andrea: You have a specific role at Walmart; would you tell us just a little bit about your position?
Travis McNeal: Sure. I run the Change Management Center of Expertise in the supply
chain organization. And Walmart is a large company, but the supply chain is what we would call a small part of the business but it still if you were to look at just the supply chain organization, it’s about a hundred and ten thousand associates and managers strong. So, it’s still a pretty large company in and of itself.
Andrea: So what is your specific role in that?
Travis McNeal: Yes. So we’re recently going through a transformation. We’ve been on this transformation journey for about two years now and it’s about a five-year journey and we’re really trying to transform the way in which our supply chain runs. And there’s around 17 programs of work that make up the supply chain strategy, and my responsibility is really twofold.
One is to work with the program leads for each one of those 17 programs of work to help ensure that they’re really thinking about all the elements of change management so that their programs can land successfully and effectively as possible. The other part is really working with the field. So, think of our distribution centers, our truck drivers, and our trucking offices, those folks. When programs are typically rolled out, it’s typically rolled out to the field.
And so the other half of my responsibility is to ensure that the leaders in the field are able to and effectively driving the programs with those who are impacted by those programs. So that would be the leading change piece, whereas on the program side it’s more of the change management piece.
Andrea: So, Travis, how did you kind of get involved in this particular piece of change management at Walmart?
Travis McNeal: I’ve been with Walmart about eight years and originally joined as part of the change management or design team, and there was a need for change management, and I’ve just slowly built up my career with Walmart. I ran the change management training and communications team for we were rolling out a large ERP program for HR, Enterprise Resource Management program and we were rolling that out internationally. I led that team for about four years.
And the thing that I felt about that team, it was great work, but it was pretty far removed from the business. So, working in supply chain, I felt like I wanted to get more involved with the business. And supply chain, they knew they were going on this transformation journey. They had fallen behind in many respects to the supply chain industry, and they needed to really reinvent themselves. That’s where I earned the right to be able to stand up a change management team and a change management practice within the supply chain organization.
Andrea: I mean, I would imagine that change is sort of a constant at Walmart, is that true?
Travis McNeal: Of course. The retail industry is in a severe upheaval right now. You’ve probably seen across, you know, news clippings here and there that several retailers are closing down. Who would have thought, you know, two years ago that Toys R Us wouldn’t be around today. So, the retail industry in itself is just under a constant state of change. And so that’s where my role really is important to really help guide the organization as they decide to go through changes.
Andrea: So when there is so much change going on, do you find that people are kind of nervous sometimes or even maybe defensive? Does anybody hold on tight to their roles and worry? Is there concern that sort of permeates the culture or are you able to kind of navigate that pretty well?
Travis McNeal: It’s a little bit of both. So any time you go through change, you know, regardless, – even through positive changes, you know – there’s this thing change management practitioners called the change curve where there’s always going to be this low point where people go through. Even if you were to get a promotion, there’s always going to come a point and time – you know, whether it’s one month, three months, six months into that new job – where you think, “Did I make the right choice?” You’re kind of learning a new role, you’re learning new people and the same is true when organizations go through large changes that the people experience that sense of loss of control, you might say, and do a little less predictability.
So that’s one of the sources that generates this resistance and people really being uncertain and very uncomfortable with some of these programs that are rolling out. And sometimes there are severe cases where you have people actively trying to thwart the goals of the program.
Andrea: What do you do to help people navigate that loss of control and unpredictability that they feel?
Travis McNeal: Yeah, that’s where the whole change of leadership piece comes into play. So, in an organization of our size, you know, we can’t have a change management person there onsite, you know, be there for each one of our hundred and ten thousand associates. And so you’ll often hear said in the change management world that sponsorship is the most important factor in successful change management, whether you’re using Prosci or whether you’re using John Kotter’s 8 Steps. Whatever, you know, change management methodology you’re using, they’ll often point to sponsorship, and that goes down to the very frontline manager.
So that’s why we have spent a fair amount of time investing in our frontline leadership to ensure that they understand the emotional toll that happens when people go through change, and then they’re included in that as well. We try to help them understand that, “What your associates experience, you’re going to experience that too. And so, before you can help your associates, you really need to come to terms with this loss of control that you might feel. So, in that way you can then in turn help your associates.”
One of the things that we’ve really tried to do is really invest in the training and preparation when we roll out programs in our managers to ensure that they understand the important role that they play in leading change within their own organization. Whether that’s leading a team of four or whether that’s leading a team of four hundred, a lot of the behaviors are going to be the same.
Andrea: So, you help them to kind of come to grips with the fact that this is going to happen, and this is how you’re going to feel. It sounds a bit like, “This is going to be painful, but we are going to be able to get to the other side.” Is there that kind of communication? “But there is this on the other side.” How do you get them to the other side?
Travis McNeal: So, first off, I think a lot of the programs that are rolled out are really good things. Things that should have happened years ago, and so there’s helping them understand, you know, not just what the other side will look like but to help them understand also what if we were to stay the same? What if we weren’t to change? You know, if we were to continue to going down this path, what might be the alternate reality? And so, we kind of try to tie the two together to say, “You know, what we can choose to change, or we can choose to stay the same,” and hear what the outcomes are for both.
We do try to spend a fair amount of time really articulating, not just the business case but just, you know, you’ll hear it say the, “What’s in it for me?”. So we really try to devote a fair amount of time to articulate, you know, what’s going to be in it for the associates and the managers. And a lot of times what you find out is that the majority of the people, regardless of your company, if you can explain it clearly the reason for the change, even if it’s a program that might be less in it for the associate or the employee, if they can see the real reasons for it – even if they don’t like it – they’ll understand it, and they’ll get it.
And there was a recent study done by Gartner that highlighted where they talked with over 400 companies and then had 300 or 50 so programs that they evaluated. That’s one of the top seven things that they learned was that, you know, associates don’t necessarily need to like it, they need to understand it. And that’s more important than actually liking the program.
Andrea: They don’t want to be just blindly led. They want to have a sense of, “OK, I get it”
Travis McNeal: Mh-hmm.
Andrea: Yeah.
Travis McNeal: Again, we find that most people in an organization, they’re smart, they get it. You know if you try to spin it in a way that might be untruthful, they’ll see through it pretty quickly. But if you can just be transparent as much as you can about why this program is in place, again if they don’t like it but they understand it, they’ll be more likely to come through on the other end feeling better about it.
Andrea: OK, so let’s talk a little bit more specifically about the change that has taken place so far. You have actually seen some digital transformation take place and led that transformation with the truck drivers, is that right?
Travis McNeal: Correct.
Andrea: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Travis McNeal: Sure. So, we have around 8,800 truck drivers. A lot of our truck drivers, they’ve been using what’s called an onboard computer for a few years now. Sometimes the computers work, sometimes they don’t work. It’s not as reliable as it needs to be. And one of the things that we really wanted to have them do was change the way in which they record their time. Now, currently how they’d been managing what their time has been using a paper and pencil. They’re given what we call a trip sheet and they record there.
They’re given a stack of trip sheets at the start of a given day for example, and they may have three or four pieces of paper, each with a different route that they’re supposed to go on. So, the first sheet might be going from A to B, the second sheet would be going from B to C, third would be going from C to D, and D to E, and so forth. And so what they’ve done is they wanted to try to automate so that it’s not paper-pencil, because what you might find is that someone’s got to type that information out there for those drivers and so that’s being done on the back end.
And so they’ve developed a system over the past two years, an internal system, where they really tried to make it easier – just like an app on an iPhone – where a driver could very easily say, “Here’s the trip, here’s how much time it took, here’s what I’ve done, here’s where I’m going next.”
Andrea: They can see what exactly?
Travis McNeal: They can see where they are and where they need to go next. What the requirement is for the drivers is at the end of the day they really just need to review the trip, all the rest of those activities. They used to have to record on paper pencil is now automated because all that data was already there, we just weren’t capturing in the right place for the drivers. And so the drivers at the end of the day just into review all the steps that they completed throughout that day and hit OK. And if there’s anything that needs to be changed or added or removed, it’s as simple as you would deleting an email from your phone, swiping across and that activity goes away, or add it in, you simply hit the plus sign, and add in that activity.
And so that was the change that the drivers were going to go on. So we knew that some of our drivers are very technologically savvy, you might say, others not so much. So we had to design this tool and prepare the organization to the person who was the least technologically able to do that work. That makes sense?
Andrea: Oh yeah, yeah. So that it would be simple. It would be simple to adopt and I assume easy to use.
Travis McNeal: Correct. And so the team here, they did a great job really applying design thinking and really focusing on the user experience where they spent about six months really talking to drivers, taking the technology to the drivers to really help them understand, you know, when, “If this were you to have to complete this, how would it feel for you? What kind of training that you need? What kind of communication that you need?” And the drivers that they use to validate this were you might pick cross-section of the population.
So some drivers who were really good with technology and others who less good with technology to really try to understand, you know, are we capturing the technology in a way that best will suit your needs. And we clearly articulated benefits to them which for them it’s more accurate pay and pay that they can see. So there was a clear “what’s in it for me” because they had visibility to what they were being paid every single day, whereas before, they would hope that all the data they captured was correct. And at the end of the two week period then they’d start to reconcile what they were paid versus their own records.
And so this provides them visibility to what in fact they’re paid, you know, in real time and so there was a “what’s in it for me” for them as well.
Andrea: So beyond making sure that you had something that was really accurate and quality for them, just the fact that you went to the drivers – and a cross-section of drivers – to ask them their opinion, do you feel like that had an impact on the adoption as well knowing that they had a voice in it?
Travis McNeal: Yes, yes. One, because what we were able to do anticipating that drivers when they first see this tool they don’t want to hear from people in corporate office that this tool is good, they want to hear from other drivers. And so knowing that that would be the case, we actually filmed some of the drivers before they were exposed to the tool, and then after they were exposed to the tool and would ask comparison. And we created a video that was part of the rollout package, the communications package so that other drivers, as they’re being introduced to this new tool, they’re hearing other drivers, some of which they know. They know some of those drivers that were on camera and so they were able to say, “Hmm, OK if that driver feels comfortable with it, it can’t be that bad and if they’ve had input into it then I trust that this tool has been designed by drivers for drivers.”
Andrea: That’s a great way to communicate the effectiveness and the fact that this is really for you. That’s great. So where is this change going to take you in the next five years or I guess in the next three years, you said this is a five-year journey and you’re about two years into it. Where else are you going with this or that you can tell us?
Travis McNeal: Sure, sure. So what we just described was simply one small component of one of those 17 work streams. There are many other work streams and programs that are being rolled out. And I would say some of the bigger culture changes that we’re trying to drive is this zero-loss mentality. I’d say over the past, you know, in Walmart’s supply chain history, we’ve become very good firefighters in fixing problems as they arise. What we need to try to get better at doing is finding what are the root causes for those issues and that’s more of, I’d say, the four to five-year culture change journey that we’ve already barked on and we will continue to embark on. Because that’s not a shift in mindset that just happens overnight through a well-done communication, that’s something that just has to be learned and that’s more of the long term play where we can really drive the culture change. And of course, there’s several other automation programs that we’re going about to try to drive out some of the non-value added work where we can. So, that’s part of all of the larger journey.
Andrea: So the zero-loss mentality, is this overarching theme of your journey that you’re trying to embark on?
Travis McNeal: Mh-hmm.
Andrea: So, what exactly do you mean by the zero loss mentality?
Travis McNeal: One of our goals in supply chain is to put as many cases on a trailer as we possibly can. And part of the reason for doing that is, yes it saves us money, but it also is good for the environment, because if we’re putting more cases on a trailer we’re putting less trucks on the road.
Andrea: Sure.
Travis McNeal: And so one of our goals is to try to get, you know, for example throw out a number say 2,500 cases on a trailer if that’s our goal and we’re only hitting maybe 2,000 cases on a trailer, 2,500 cases is perfection. So, anything less than 2,500 cases is a loss. And so how do we identify what that loss is and find the root cause to why that loss occurs. It could be that maybe we didn’t have enough staffing, and so then you ask a question why didn’t we have enough staffing? We have high turnover. Why do we have high turnover? Well, we have managers who maybe don’t have the right skill set to engage our associates. Well, why don’t we have the managers, and so on and so on.
And so that’s really the zero-loss mentality is instead of placing the blame on people, let’s try to find out what are the things that are getting in the way. What sources of friction might exist that prevent our associates and our managers from being able to fulfill the role to be able to drive those perfect operations that we’re striving for.
Andrea: Sure, makes complete sense. OK, you said you said that you are kind of making sure that you’re working with all 17 program leads and there are all these projects going on. How do you keep it straight in your own mind and in the way that you work as the sort of the leader that’s sort of putting making sure that all of this is running smoothly?
Travis McNeal: Sure. So from the moment that the change management practice, you might say, was stood up in the supply chain organization, one of the very first things that was agreed to by the leadership was that the change management is really owned by the program lead. And so what that means is that I’m more of an adviser. And so as an adviser and coach, I don’t know that I necessarily need to keep tabs on all those different programs of work. I get into the details of each one of those programs to help prescribe to those program leads, you know, here are the recommended activities that your program needs to be able to drive adoption because that’s ultimately the goal of change management is you’re trying to drive towards adoption.
There are some new program that’s coming that needs to be adopted within the business. And so I don’t necessarily need to keep control or keep straight all the programs work. Now, I will say just by virtue of my role, I do have a high degree of awareness of each one of these programs work so I can see interdependencies and so on. But my role primarily really tries to advise each one of those program leads about what sort of change management effort is required and what sort of activities and tools we have in our toolkit that might be able to help that program be most effective in driving adoption.
Andrea: What are some of the qualities of program leads that really make them great for their position?
Travis McNeal: Certainly, a strong project management skillset I’ve found has been very effective. But one of the more important characteristics or skills that they’ve had, the more effective ones have had is their ability to influence across functional lines, because a lot of these programs have worked. Yes, we might be impacting drivers but, you know, our human resource organization certainly needs to know about what’s happening because we’re talking about how drivers are paid. Our technology team needs to be involved in some way. Our distribution centers who, in fact, are working with our drivers, they need to be aware.
And so the really good program leads are the ones who are able to not only work across functional lines but be able to understand which functional lines need to be involved and are able to identify who the key stakeholders are and what degree of engagement they need to provide going forward.
Andrea: Well, it has been one of the hardest things for you in the midst of this five-year journey; you’re in the middle of it now. I mean, has it been hard, or do you just come in and you know exactly what to do, you know exactly how to handle things, smooth sailing for you. What is it like for you?
Travis McNeal: Yes. So, as with any transformation, there’s going to be things that work or work really well and there’s going to be things that didn’t land as well as you would like. And that would be true for Walmart supply chain as well. You know, early on in the journey, we certainly rolled out one or two programs in a very short amount of time where the associates and managers just didn’t have the time needed to be able to clearly understand all those things that we described earlier, “Why are we doing this? How is this going to impact me? How is this going to benefit Walmart? How is this going to benefit me?”
So certainly, there are those where we wish we would have done a little bit better. And I’d say that one of the biggest pressures that I think is challenging for going on a journey like this is the need to transform quickly, yet at the same time do it in the right way. And there’s a balance there because there are real commitments that leaders have made, not just in supply chain but in any organization. There are real commitments that they’ve made to the business and to shareholders of what they’re going to deliver.
So, there’s that pressure, yet the pressure to try to do it right for the associates and so that’s been a defined line that I would say there’s a silver bullet just really trying to balance, you know, the speed ensuring the associates and managers are put in a position to succeed.
Andrea: Have you found any sort of shortcuts for figuring out how to balance and make that balance work?
Travis McNeal: Well, one thing that was said to me by a Smart Change Management person early on was sponsors are the ones that drive the speed of deployment. And so what that means is if you have an engaged leadership team and mid-level leadership team and frontline leadership team, you will likely drive change pretty quickly. But you know, that’s in a perfect world when you’re focusing on one program. When you’re talking about an organization has multiple priorities, you know, which one is the most important one? And that’s really, I think, the struggle and the challenge that we find ourselves in; which is the one that we really want to devote our time to?
Again, what I’ve seen is that when leaders are driving the change, you know, going back to sponsorship, there’s a high probability of it being successful. Some of the programs that I’ve been attached to where the program leader has really been engaged and really been able to generate that sponsorship at the senior leader levels and at the mid-levels, they’ve been very effective at getting their program adopted pretty quickly. I mean, we talk about the driver pay. There is a high degree of alignment and drive from sponsorship at all levels of the organization to make that one really successful.
Andrea: When you think about yourself and your own influence, do you have any kind of like, “I really want to be this person for my team,” do you have a sense of what your vision is for your own self and your own leadership?
Travis McNeal: If there’s something that I’ve found that’s helped me the most is it’s really not being dogmatic about the way we approach change management. And what I mean by that is there are many change management consulting firms leaders out there who do change management well, and oftentimes you find that they’re beholden to a specific model or methodology. But not all programs are created equal. There needs to be some degree of flexibility to be able to say, “You know what, I understand why that tool is necessary, but given the time constraints that we have, given the degree of impact that we’re gonna have this specific tool for this specific program isn’t the right one.”
And I’d say that just the humility that’s needed to be able to say, “You know what, you’re absolutely right. This tool is not right.” I think that’s something that I think is played to my advantage in helping to build the change management capabilities here in supply chain. It’s just helping really try to mold your change management tool kit to the program or not be as dogmatic about specific tools or specific methodologies.
Andrea: Yeah, that word humility is so important and not coming in with all the answers and being willing to look at the situation for what it is and take feedback from others and be able to mold it into what you need it to be. That would be super important.
Travis McNeal: Yeah, and along with that humility comes with the ability to listen too. It’s very easy to hear a conversation and think you know the right answer but, you know, being able to really peel back the onion to understand, “What really do they need? What problem are they trying to solve?” before you start prescribing what those recommendations would be.
Andrea: Travis, do you think that you’ve always been pretty good at listening and being humble and that sort of thing? Have you seen it done well? Or how did you come to this point where this is what’s most important to you and you’re leading this team?
Travis McNeal: So, I think I’ve always had a natural inclination towards it, but you certainly realize how more important it is when you don’t take the time to listen, which, you know, there have been times where I have assumed things and prescribed certain recommendations when in fact they weren’t correct. Had I done a better job listening up front and not having a specific recommendation before I really heard what the problem was, then yes, I certainly had to refund earlier time. But I think I certainly have a natural disposition towards it, but you know there are plenty of times where I’ve refund that overtime through, you know, missteps here and there.
Andrea: If you were to give some piece of advice to somebody who would like to see some sort of change happen, maybe they have a specific initiative that they need to spearhead in their company, what advice would you leave with them today for how they can be a voice of influence in the midst of change management?
Travis McNeal: Let’s say, if there’s one thing they could do is clearly align with the sponsor, you know, whoever is the person that has asked for this program, make sure there’s clear alignment between you and them to ensure that you’re solving the problem that they need solved. If there’s that misalignment then I think there’s going to be a lot of wasted time and it’s going to be frustrating because not everyone will agree. But if that sponsor clearly knows where they want to go then it’ll certainly make any discussions that happen thereafter much more easier and productive, I would say, that would be one.
I’ll give you one more thing and the last thing is that once the direction has been set, once the strategy, the program has been set, I think the main thing that we need to focus on, especially in the change management space for those who are change management practitioners, is that focus on adoption. I think it’s so easy and tempting to think about the tools that we’ve got, the change readiness assessments, the change impact assessments; all of these different tools that we have that work but those end up becoming what we strive for not necessarily adoption. You know, I’ve seen a handful of professionals who have lost sight of that at times. You know, when we’re leading a program, what we really should be focusing on is what’s it going to take to get the end user to adopt it as quickly and permanently as possible that to me should always be the focus.
Andrea: Because if they don’t… fill in the blank for me.
Travis McNeal: If they don’t then that program was stood up in place for a reason. And so if they don’t adopt, then you’re clearly not going to achieve that overall objective for that program. There’s a number that’s often thrown around in the change management world which is around 70% to 75% of programs fail to reach their targets. Well, this program could fall into that 70% to 75% bucket where they fail to reach their projected targets. But if you take the time to really focus on adoption then you’ll have a greater chance of achieving being that 25% that meet or exceed what those projections were.
Andrea: Love it! Got to get buy-in, got to get people to actually to use the thing to make the change. It actually takes people to do that. Thank you so much, Travis. Thank you for taking time to be with us today and sharing your experience with Change Management at Wal-Mart and for your voice of influence for our listeners.
Travis McNeal: Thank you for having me. It’s been great!