Daniel Kimble is an executive coach, keynote speaker, motorcycle road race winner, and a 30+ year veteran of Silicon Valley. He is also the author of Unshakeable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership and the CEO of Resonance Executive Coaching; a global executive coaching firm. In this episode, Daniel talks about the importance of mastering the “inner game” as an executive or leader, the difference between having a short-term mindset and a long-term mindset as a leader, the common symptoms leaders might experience if they’re not focusing on the inner game, why he believes we need to slow down so we can go faster, how a mindset focused on the wrong things limits our performance and the performance of those around us, the importance of the language we use when we speak to ourselves, his advice for helping leaders navigate the lonely road of leadership, and more!
Mentioned in this episode:
- Daniel Kimble’s Website
- Daniel Kimble’s Book | Unshakeable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership
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Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. Today, I have with me Daniel Kimble who is an executive coach, keynote speaker, motorcycle road-race winner and 30+ year veteran of Silicon Valley. He’s also the CEO of Resonance Executive Coaching, a global executive coaching firm. He holds executive MBA degrees from UC Berkeley and Columbia University, an executive coaching certificate from UC Berkeley, and an undergraduate degree in computer science from UC Santa Cruz.
He lives with his wife, Marianne and son Indiana, in the San Francisco Bay area. And Daniel has a new book out, and I’m so excited to share that with you today.
Andrea: So Daniel, welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Daniel Kimble: Yes, thanks for having me.
Andrea: So tell us a little bit about your book. What is the actual title?
Daniel Kimble: It’s called Unshakable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership.
Andrea: Okay. So, Daniel, tell us about your book Unshakeable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership. Where did this come from? Why did you write this particular book?
Daniel Kimble: That’s a great question. It came from my years of experience helping leaders be the best version of themselves and really understanding what it takes to be the best version of yourself. And the inner game of leadership in my view is the most important aspect to being an influential leader. So you really need to focus on mindset and heartset in order to be influential and be the most effective leader you can be.
Andrea: Yeah, sure, mindset and heartset. So can you dive into that just a little bit more, because I love this idea of the inner game of leadership? I certainly believe it’s important, but maybe you could share with us a little bit more about why, why does it matter that an executive leader is able to really master this inner game?
Daniel Kimble: Who you’re being on the inside has the biggest impact on how you influence other people. So the way you show up, the way you carry yourself, do you have compassion for others? Do you show up with discernment versus judgment for example, meaning that you care about them but you’re still discerning between different skill sets, et cetera? And are you showing up in a way that inspires other people and brings out the best in them? I mean that’s really mostly an inner game versus an outer game.
Andrea: Hmm. But then it shows up in the outer game.
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. It’s so much of what we experienced with other people and especially the leaders in our lives as nonverbal. Approximately 60 to 80 percent of our impacts on others is nonverbal, and so we need to pay attention to who we’re being to maximize that aspect of how we’re showing up and how we’re impacting others.
Andrea: Hmm. I really enjoyed your book. First of all, I loved your personal examples and you use a lot of models and other examples. And it seems really practical but really speaks to the inner game but it’s bringing into that practical level. And I know that you even started out the book with really a business case for why it matters and why people should focus on it. And so I was wondering if you could share a little bit about why, you know, obviously it’s a big piece of what we’re doing but, why does it matter that someone actually invest or a company actually invest in helping their leaders with this inner game?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. I tried really hard to make the book practical and hands-on. It’s a gap, I would say, in the marketplace in terms of books that actually show you how to be a master of inner game of leadership in a very practical kind of way. And there’s so many missed opportunities if we’re not doing that as individual leaders and as a leadership team. For example, people when they leave a company, it’s most often that they leave their boss or a poor relationship with their boss. It’s the most common reason why they leave and it’s very costly when someone leaves the company. It hits the engagement, hits the morale, productivity, et cetera. It really_____ on leadership more than anything else.
Andrea: And I know that that part of what you’re talking about in that section was had to do with the difference between having a short-term mindset and the long-term mindset. What is the difference between having a short term and a long term mindset?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. Sort of what I touched on there is that it’s easy as a leader, especially in today’s world with investors, either public or private, putting a lot of pressure to meet short term financial metrics. Definitely, I want to meet the short term metrics but sometimes the short term gets maximized and the medium to long term gets overlooked, I would say. And the best results come from a medium to long-term focus. And then if you’re doing that right there, the short term results would show up but it can be easy as a leader to focus too much on the short term, not enough in the medium to long term.
Andrea: Let’s take a minute here and go back. I want to hear a little bit more about your personal origin story. We might even plug this in at the beginning, now that I’m thinking about it, because I don’t want to tell your story. You tell your story in the book and that’s so important. But can you share with us what got you into the leadership game in the first place?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah, it’s a very personal thing for me where, for all of my life, I’ve really been just sort of wired that way where I notice what’s happening inside of people, what’s happening between people, what’s happening in terms of what makes a great leader, what makes a great team, what makes a great culture. I could see the issues as well as the things that were working well, like very, very clearly from a very young age.
One of my earliest memories as a kid is actually noticing my mom and a friend of her having a bit of an argument and I could tell exactly, at the age of five or six, what was going on in that conversation. I just didn’t know how to articulate it to them in a way that could help. But I could see that they were actually miscommunicating. They didn’t really disagree. They just weren’t able to communicate effectively. And that’s been a key part of who I am for forever really. It was always a natural draw for me to be on this line of work because I’m just wired that way.
Andrea: Hmm. So you noticed even in that conversation with your mom that they were not communicating appropriately. They weren’t actually communicating. What did you see? You weren’t sure how to articulate it or how to help them, but you could just see that they were not, you know, tell me what you mean by that? What do you mean by they weren’t communicating?
Daniel Kimble: It’s like the words that they were using versus what they were really trying to say were two different things. And those gaps between what they really wanted to say and the words that they were choosing was the root cause of what was happening versus them actually disagreeing. And I see that again and again, like in leaders, teams, and cultures that such a common challenge we all face. And again, for me I can so quickly notice that and now I have tools to help people quickly address those gaps and on how they communicate and shift to they’re being in such that they come across in a different way and be more influential and have less differences with other people because they’re communicating more effectively.
Andrea: What do you suppose led you to that place where you started to be able to articulate and be able to help people in those situations?
Daniel Kimble: You know I like that question. I don’t know if I could point to any one thing, I would say it’s a lifelong journey for me. I’m really seeing the gaps and then over time doing a lot of reading, a lot of practice, a lot of trying different things, helping other people try different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t work and just honing it over time is what I would say.
Andrea: Hmm. OK, so let’s jump back into the book. What problems have you seen come up with your clients when they’re really not focusing on that inner game of leadership?
Daniel Kimble: The problems or the symptoms that tend to be talked about are things like other people are not so keen to work with them or they, maybe, will say like he or she doesn’t understand me or doesn’t work well with me. Some hits to engagement, some hits to maybe attrition or maybe some people are leaving the company given how this leader is showing up. Those are the kind of the external circumstances that tend to show up in terms of why someone would start to work with me in the first place.
Andrea: And do they recognize that like the leader themselves, is it hard for them to see that in themselves or what do you hope for when they start working with you in terms of their own awareness?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. I think a lot of times it is hard for people to see their own limitations. That’s the one of the biggest challenges we, as people, have. I do talk about that in the book as well. You have to be willing to be vigilant, with yourself, honestly in order to be the best version of yourself. And I would say, that by the time someone agrees to work with me, they have enough awareness to see the need and go forward. The ones who don’t have enough awareness, probably, wouldn’t go forward.
Andrea: Sure. And do you have any suggestions for people when, maybe, they have a leader or they see a leader who is probably causing problems with the way that they’re leading and they would like somebody, like you, to come in and work with them, but they’re not sure, you know, how do they bring this to that leader’s awareness? Do you have any suggestions for that person?
Daniel Kimble: It’s a tricky thing to manage because I’m a big believer in that we need to be the change that you want to see in the world first. And so my first answer to that question is to look inside of ourselves and ask, “Well, what can I do differently to help this leader be more effective?” Or “How can I work better with this leader by showing up differently myself?”
Andrea: Yeah, I love that.
Daniel Kimble: And then the other piece of that, if you want to have a conversation with that leader, which is definitely under the right circumstances, probably a good thing to do if they’re having a significant negative impact, you want to be mindful of how you approach that. So, I would say over time, establish a stronger relationship with that executive and get to know them, it’d be would be better. Give them a chance to get to know you and slowly over time give them some feedback about how they’re impacting other people and see what the response is. And hopefully, there’s some openness now or they could become some openness overtime to hearing it and doing something about it.
Andrea: You know, I know that one of the things that kind of comes up for folks is they feel like they’re already so busy. Why add something else to the plate? But one of the things that you said in your book, and of course this is something that I hear or have said before as well, but it’s so important and I’d love to hear you talk about it a little bit more and that’s the idea of slowing down so that you can go faster. What in the world does that mean? Tell us more about that.
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. First of all, this saying comes from motorcycle racing that’s when I first heard it. I used to race motorcycles and ended up being very good at it, and I share a lot of stories throughout the book and map that to leadership and that’s a sign that comes from that arena. What it means as a motorcycle racer is that you need to slow down in order to go faster. You need to learn the right lanes on the track, meaning the fastest lanes versus the ones that are the shortest distance in order to really grow the fastest you can go.
As a leader, it’s the same thing. Maybe leaders feel like they’re going as fast as they can go but they’ve probably chosen the wrong lanes. If you actually have learned how to lead in a different way, you can go faster. We have to slow down in order to do that. If you slow down and evaluate what you’re doing, how are you doing it, and who you’re being and then change those things to maximize your leadership, now you can go much faster in a much more compassionate kind of way.
Andrea: And have you seen that really play out with the leaders that you’ve worked with?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. When I’m coaching someone one on one, typically about three to four months into the process, they really start to feel like it’s paying off now. They’re actually getting the multiplier effect. It does slow down initially because any new thing that you’re learning, you do have to slow down to learn it. But once you get that far enough along that learning curve, you get your time back and then overtime it multiplies.
Andrea: And when you’re doing your coaching, I know that the book is full of so much, you know, even your coaching clients will be able to get a lot out of it on its own. But how much of the content that you share in your book tends to work its way into the coaching process?
Daniel Kimble: All of it. Everything in there is based upon my experience. And definitely going forward, now that the book is published, it’ll be required reading for people I work with as a starting point and will start from a higher foundation, if you will. And the coaching can go that much further but everything in there is based on my work.
Andrea: Sure. Do you incorporate all of it into every coaching situation, do you think?
Daniel Kimble: Oh yeah. There’s a lot in there. So we wouldn’t necessarily cover all that territory with one individual executive but we pull the right pieces at the right time for that executive.
Andrea: Sure. And so it’s just based sort of on their needs and what they’re experiencing and that sort of thing?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. What they’re needing at that point in time and there’s a lot more stuff they can do overtime in the book too but wouldn’t necessarily do everything.
Andrea: Uh-hmm. OK, so how does a mindset focused on the wrong things limit our performance and the performance of those around us? I really liked the way that you put that “That mindset that’s focused on the wrong things limits our performance and the performance on those around us.” Can you share both why it impacts us and why it impacts the people around us?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. It’s another thing that I pull from motorcycle racing, a saying called, you go where you look. In racing, it means that where you focus your vision is where your bike will tend to go. So if you’re focusing on the apex of the next corner, which is where you want to go then that’s what the bike will tend to do. If you’re focused on the concrete wall on the side of a truck, it will tend to go that direction whether you like it or not.
And the same thing is true in all aspects of life to where we focus our mind is where we tend to go. So as a leader you want to focus more and more on relationship, more and more on inspiring others to do their best work versus getting stuff done yourself. Individual leaders oftentimes get promoted based upon their ability to get stuff done. Now, they need to scale themselves as a leader by doing stuff done through others. That’s a key transition and you need to focus on that versus getting stuff done yourself.
Andrea: And so when you’re focused on the wrong things then they’re going to end up being drawing themselves to those things as well because that’s where you’re headed.
Daniel Kimble: Right. So for focus as a leader, for example, a common challenge for people who did get promoted up in the ways that I described, they’re often focused a lot on control. And as a leader, you don’t have direct control over much of anything anymore. You have to accept that. So if you’re overly focused on control, you’re going to drive people towards burnout and maybe leaving the company. Whereas, if you’re driving towards or focusing on inspiring other people by focusing on relationship, now they’re wanting to do their best work versus feeling like they have to do their best work.
Andrea: Hmm. I like that. And I like your focus on this relational component and how important that is. I know that you’d mentioned kind of page 67, 68; you’d talked about an exercise that you use called the bestfriend exercise. And I know that so many leaders really end up, I don’t know, being self-critical and it’s really difficult for them to not hear their own voice criticizing themselves all the time and beating themselves up because we should be better, “I know I could be better.” So would you mind sharing with us a little bit about that bestfriend exercise that you do?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. It’s really a focus on changing our inner self-talk to be more positive and more supportive of us being our best self. We will, by default how we’re wired as well as conditioning over the years, tend too much towards the negative. We all have a negativity bias in us. It goes back to our need to survive and also, to significant degree, the way we we’re conditioned as children, oftentimes, and if the exercise is intended to shift that mindset to be more positive.
So, imagine if you have a presentation coming up and you want to really do great on this presentation. How you talk to yourself makes a big difference in how you show up. If you’re telling yourself you have to do well versus I want to do well, it’s a very different way to think about it. So what I ask people to do is to look at from the perspective of, if you were talking to your bestfriend, what would you say to them to support them in that moment versus what your inner critic would automatically say and then change your self-talk to match that bestfriend dialog.
Andrea: Could you give us an example?
Daniel Kimble: So for example, just going the one I said, if you have a presentation coming up, you’re telling yourself I have to do well, I have to nail this. If I don’t, I’m going to be in really bad shape and that kind of stuff. Instead say, it’s a constant learning curve. I’m getting better all the time and how can I best do this presentation in this moment given who I am at this point in time, right?
Andrea: Sure. Yeah, it’s so tempting to be hypercritical, I think. And, you know, we ended up comparing and then feeling bad about ourselves and all that. This idea that we would be kind to ourselves as though we were being kind to our bestfriend I think is a really, really powerful one.
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. It’s based also on a self-compassion versus self-esteem.
Andrea: Yeah. Go ahead and share.
Daniel Kimble: Self-esteem is kind of understood. I think it’s a widely accepted term these days, at least in the United States, I think probably are everywhere else to some degree too and there’s some challenges with that kind of framing of it. Self-esteem tends to be more conditional based upon how you perform at any given day. If you believe that you did well that day, you tend to feel good about yourself. If you think you didn’t do well that day then you tend to feel poorly about yourself.
Self-compassion is about treating yourself well no matter what. Again, bestfriend exercise, how would you talk to yourself as if you’re your own best friend? And it tends to create better results is the interesting thing. So, inner slave driver doesn’t actually work.
Andrea: Sure. Why shouldn’t we put people on a pedestal?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. That’s a rich topic.
Andrea: Yeah, it is. I like it.
Daniel Kimble: Yeah. I highlight some of those things on the book. But it’s about if we’re putting other people on a pedestal or putting ourselves beneath that person and thereby letting ourselves off the hook, for me, not our best self. Like that person or that set of people that we put above us they’re somehow superhuman and we’re not is what we’re telling ourselves. But yet, they’re human just like we are. They’re just as flawed as we are. They just, maybe, have some skills or experiences that we don’t have, but we can definitely get there if we want to. So, we actually give ourselves an excuse not to try harder to be our best self by putting other people on a pedestal.
Andrea: I think that that is really fascinating. I see it a lot and I like the way that you talk about it because it’s something that it can get in the way of so many things, like you said, being your best self. But then also you turn it around as well in the book and you talked about, what about when people put you on a pedestal? And I’ll just read a little quote from the book if you don’t mind. Is that okay?
Daniel Kimble: Sure.
Andrea: You said, “As we get better and better at mastering the inner game of leadership, we will become more prominent and more influential. As a result, we will attract more people who will put us on a pedestal. We need to be as weary of anyone putting us on a pedestal as we are putting others on a pedestal for the same reasons. Elevating us to an exalted status will likely prevent them from being totally honest with us. They will struggle to own their personal power while in our presence and as a result, they will be less effective. And at some point they may find a reason to tear us down from that pedestal and suddenly go from believing that we can do nothing wrong to believing that we can do nothing right.” I absolutely love that paragraph. Where have you seen this happen?
Daniel Kimble: It happens all the time in life, really, and in so many aspects, you know. Bring it back to leadership in the business world; it’s easy to put a senior executive if we’re not a senior executive ourselves on a pedestal. It’s easier if we are a senior executive, we will attract more and more people who will have a tendency to put us on a pedestal and then they won’t be fully candid. They’ll be worried about saying the wrong thing. They’ll be less effective because, again, they don’t know their power in our presence. So it’s not good for anybody, whatever direction it goes.
Andrea: I really love it because you’re speaking to the idea of helping other people find their voice. So how do you keep them from putting you on a pedestal, I guess?
Daniel Kimble: It’s a mixed thing. First of all, there’s only so much you can do because they have to own their own mindset, right? But you can also influence them by helping them. If you’re that senior executive for example, help them feel more at ease. Your role by itself, no matter who you are as a person, isn’t intimidating to a lot of people. So recognize that and try to meet them where they’re at as much as you can and put them at ease.
And the last thing you want to do as a senior executive is to in any way, especially, with your body language, your nonverbal communication, communicate that anything that’s “bad news” is something you didn’t actually want to hear. You want to welcome that as much as you possibly can because so many people will not share that with you and you need that information.
Andrea: OK. Say that again because I think that’s really important. You’re saying that that when other people have something to share that they don’t think that you want to hear that you should welcome that. That’s kind of what you’re saying, right?
Daniel Kimble: Exactly, because as decision makers in an organization, we need to have timely accurate information or else we’re making decisions based upon untimely and inaccurate information and then that’s how strategy decisions go wrong. That’s how all kinds of bad decisions end up happening based upon and/or untimely information. And so, people are conditioned, again and again, to be concerned about looking bad, feeling embarrassed saying something to a senior executive that might add some personal repercussions, you know, “bad news.” But as a senior executive, we need to make sure that we are welcoming that because, otherwise, we won’t get it. And then we’re making decisions based upon untimely inaccurate information.
Andrea: So, essentially, don’t shoot the messenger
Daniel Kimble: In any way, you know, your words matter of course, but who you’re being, your nonverbal is more important than that situation.
Andrea: Hmm. And you go on a little bit later to talk about giving people emotional gifts and I feel like that really ties to that, “Giving people an emotional gift when you interact with them.” So can you tell us what that means and what it would look like in even that situation?
Daniel Kimble: Really, yeah, there are many ways you can do it. The one that comes to mind right away is body language, be open with your body language, make warm soft eye contact, smile a little bit, show openness with your arms and your legs, don’t cross your arms, et cetera. Try not to frown. Some people, by default, will just kind of have a frown on their face. It’s not that they necessarily intended that but be aware of that if that’s your default, you know, facial possession and try to pick something that feels more warmth to other people.
Andrea: OK, so I want to close this little piece. This is a difficult one and this is that leadership can be such a lonely road. I always had a mentor that would tell me that. What advice do you have for leaders to navigate this potential loneliness?
Daniel Kimble: Yeah, it’s interesting, almost a paradox. But the more effective we are as a leader, the more lonely we are likely to be because there’s fewer and fewer people who appears to us in that sense of where we’re at in the organization. And so what we want to do is to consciously, throughout our career, throughout our lives, be cultivating relationships with people who we do feel are good peers for us, ideally, outside of our organization.
Because we’re not necessarily likely we can trust somebody fully that’s in the organization, especially, for in a very senior role. And have those kind of coach-mentor-peer relationships outside the organization that we felt like we can really share openly, candidly exactly what we think and feel and be willing to say in those settings like, “I don’t know what to do here, tell me some of your experiences to help me out.” In a leadership situation, you don’t necessarily want to say that to people because you want to make sure that you’ve got the air of confidence, if you will. You only want to be transparent of course, but you also want to be confident in what you’re doing.
So having those outside relationships goes a long way towards solving that loneliness problem. As you become more and more effective as a leader, you get more lonely, you have to have other relationships to rely on. If you don’t have that, the risk is that you’ll lose touch.
Andrea: Hmm. Is there any last thing that you would want to say, a piece of advice that we might have missed in your book. I know there’s so much in there. It’s so good, guys, you really need to go out and get it, Unshakable Influence. And you can tell us where to get it here in a minute, but as far as, you know, is there any one more thing that you would want leaders to hear from you today?
Daniel Kimble: I would say there’s so much in the book, but the key thing I want to leave people with is to try to view everything in your leadership life as a mirror back to you. So whatever you’re experiencing, how can you influence that situation for the better because you have the most control over yourself? And always look to how you can improve yourself to improve the situation versus trying to change other people. That’s the first place you want to look.
Andrea: Very good! OK, so Daniel, where can people find you and your book?
Daniel Kimble: You can find me on my website resonanceexecutivecoaching.com. The book is on Amazon, it’s called Unshakable Influence: Mastering the Inner Game of Leadership.
Andrea: Alright. Well, thank you so much for being on the Voice of Influence podcast today and sharing more about Unshakable Influence. We appreciate it!
Daniel Kimble: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a great time.
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