Dr. Neal Schnoor is Chief of Staff to the President at California State University, Long Beach where he operates in various functions in support of meeting the mission of the University. Dr. Schnoor was also my professor when I attended the University of Nebraska at Kearney, and he taught me as a music education major and in a leadership class.
I still remember being in that class and being struck by his conviction about leadership and really calling us to be great leaders so when I started the Voice of Influence podcast, I really wanted to bring him on to share his voice. That was about three years ago and it was such a great conversation that when we decided to do this series on understanding power structures, I knew I wanted to talk to Dr. Schnoor again and have him share his perspective.
In this episode, Neal discusses how checks and balances help to maintain healthy power structures within an organization, how to lead in a healthy way, what you can do as a leader to create a culture that supports your team at every level, the most important aspect of a good leader, especially when faced with situations like the current pandemic, and so much more.
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Transcript
All right! So, today I have with me Dr. Neal Schnoor. Dr. Schnoor was actually my professor when I was in school at University of Nebraska at Kearney. He was band teacher, and he taught me as a music education major. He taught a leadership class. And I just remember being so struck by his conviction about leadership and really calling us to being great leaders that when I got to start this podcast, I decided very soon that I wanted to talk to him. I really wanted to bring his voice onto the podcast.
We did an interview about three years ago. It’s called “Perhaps it’s Time to Stop Leading and Focus on Influencing.” It’s Episode 14, and I really love that conversation.
When we decided to do the podcast series on “Understanding Power Structures,” I definitely wanted to talk to him again because his perspective comes from that of somebody who is the chief of staff to the president of a major university. So, we wanted to look at what does this look like, understanding the power structures within an organization and how those checks and balances come into play. How does that work exactly? How do you have a healthy organization and maintain a healthy organization? How do you lead in a healthy way, especially when we’re faced with things like COVID-19 and social injustice and unrest?
So, that’s the conversation that you’re about to listen to. I am thrilled to bring you this conversation with Dr. Neal Schnoor.
Andrea: All right, so Dr. Neil Schnoor, it is great to have you back on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: It is a pleasure to join you, Andrea.
Andrea: So, can you tell us where you are now, what you’re doing? What’s your position and role, your perspective?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Sure. So, I started a new position a year ago at California State University at Long Beach, and I’m chief of staff to the president. Too long to explain what that all means, and everywhere, chief of staff is a little different. But in general, my job is to ensure that the office runs smoothly, that we work with the executive team and meet the mission of the university. It’s the best way to say it, changes every day, and love the kind of pace and difference every day brings.
Andrea: So, you have a very up-close perspective on what it looks like to really be at the home of an institution, and even make sure that things are running well, that sort of thing. We are talking about this… you know, in this podcast series, we’ve been talking about “Understanding Power Structures.” So, given your position and the institutional-level kind of perspective that you bring, could you share with us how much energy and effort do you think does or should a healthy organization put into making sure that it’s actually healthy?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, you know, defining the word healthy, I guess, would be an issue, but in terms of structures, you know… each leader that comes to an institution – and I’ve been in higher education, two institutions – the leader really does put a stamp on it, and they bring certain expectations. And while you’ve clearly got in our structure a provost or some title there that oversees the academics, you need someone overseeing the business and finance and operations. You need someone overseeing student affairs. You’ll need someone with the foundation fundraising and alumni-relations technology.
Generally, those are the baskets you’re going to have and at most institutions, you’ll see that, but they also put their own flavors on that and have smaller or larger groups. So that part of being healthy, you know… what you see on paper is just the description. It’s really what happens behind the scenes that really matters. It’s how we work together and how we collaborate and support one another.
I really would focus and draw people – you know, especially in the current climate – health and wellbeing are really challenged right now. For folks that are very social, and they’re removed from those support networks and trying to support those through telehealth, telecommunications, those are big pushes for us right now. So, I really am glad, I think, really only in the last five to ten years have we seen people get really serious about providing support for mental as well as physical wellbeing.
Andrea: And why do you think that that shifted?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, you know, some people would say we live in a greater, stressful environment, and I think in some ways that’s true. I just think there’s a realization that, you know, we bring people on board and the hiring process – which we may talk about moving forward; I think it’s so critical – and you get them on board and then what? You know, more people than not just say, “Go, here’s the keys and have at it.” Very little transition, very little onboarding, perhaps not enough oversight; sometimes too much oversight, not giving them the freedom.
But I think we want to take care of our people because it’s way easier to cultivate and grow someone you already have hired and has passed your review than to let them suffer, you know, and go through that process a lot. But you will see in some organizations just a tremendous amount of turnover. It’s not always bad, but better to support, develop, and train the wellbeing of our employees than to have this constant turnover.
Andrea: So, do you mind if I ask what does that onboarding or that continued support look like where you’re at?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: You know, it’s really hard… So it helps where I’m at. It’s different. I’ve been at different institutions and it takes on different… depending on whether it’s corporate or whatever. But mainly what you want to do is once the person is on board, that process is there, start connecting them with the people that they’re going to work with and/or lead. It sounds crazy, but people have to move their house, they have to move their family. I mean, the sheer number of things that a new employee coming on board… you got to bring a set I-9 Form and it’s got to be in person, and “You got to fill out this. We got to have you fill out this in order to get your email account. You can’t have this until you have your email account.” It is a laundry list.
So, there’s some of that that happens. But it’s hopefully getting engaged with who they direct report to and start explaining and helping them understand a little about the culture and how things operate, connecting them with the people in their unit and starting to have those conversations. And then again, it’s not about just running on day one. It’s about being comfortable to assume the position and then you really start engaging one-on-one and in groups to learn.
Some people are more formal about that and then on the other end, it’s, “Well, I expect you should be able to do that. I hired you, so go.” And I think anywhere toward the first rather than the latter is a step in the right direction. A lot of it… I had a lot of training in HR in safety and privacy and technology, security. There are just a lot of trainings that have to take place.
Andrea: So, from the perspective of the institution, how does an institution guard against the potential abuse of power? And you and I had a really interesting conversation about power previously. When we’re talking about the abuse of power – maybe it’s an abuse of authority – certainly, you have professors, you have I assume, a hierarchy of how people report, that sort of thing. How does the institution handle and guard against that abuse of power?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: You know, one area, if you look at it from a larger organization that would be similar between public and private, is really to have two functions. And I’ll jump to you really need to have a culture built around compliance. And being transparent about and a tone set from the top that, “We will function in accordance with laws, statutes, and regulations, as well as ethical norms.” Then there’s the other side of that, which is an audit function. And you know, I think some people are surprised [when] they read in the paper that there’s this financial issue happened at an institution. They think it’s the Wild West. I can’t begin to explain to people who aren’t in this business the literally tens of thousands of statutes, regulations, policies that we operate in compliance with.
So, there can be abuses of power – I’m not ducking that, we’ll get back to it – but the good news is that there are audit functions. So, for instance, every year, organizations have to have a fiscal audit, and those audits will catch things right away. Most people will say, “Oh, you got caught! Somebody did something wrong.” Again, reflect back to what I said, literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of policies.
And so it’s possible that a trigger on a technology thing got tripped, and now all of the taxes were misapplied by thirty-two cents and that adds up to a hundred million dollars and the audit will catch that, and the audit will go back and require those things to be fixed. So, there are built-in good things if we use them to avoid those power things. We can dive into that. I think another thing I’d mentioned at this point would simply be those two functions have to work hand-in-glove. And in many places, they’re sort of against each other, and people in the organization have sort of sense that those are the bad guys. So, that’s natural in a way, but I would also call our compliance and audit people to up their people skills.
Let me give you an example on the compliance front. So, I had a dear colleague who is an expert in compliance, and I’m not joking with you. Pick any area, and to be an expert in it takes a career. And then the laws change and the regulations change and the system policies change – they have to make all those changes. So, what compliance people need to do is they need to continue to do pertinent, continuous training on the big picture items.
But here’s how it plays out. Now, you’ve got a faculty member whose job it is to prepare and deliver classes. They’re also recruiting students. They’re also doing their research, scholarly productivity. They’re engaged in the community. It is not possible… Yes, they need to be trained on the big things, but dotting the I’s on even the most recent Title IX policy, which just changed and is being implemented, they’re going to come to you as the expert and say, “I need some help with this. I think there could be an issue here.”
This colleague, who lives in this world and is an expert on it, one day said, “What’s wrong with faculty members? I thought they were supposed to be smart, and they don’t know anything about fiscal policy. They don’t know the steps you’re supposed to go to make sure that you pay people on time,” all these kinds of things. And you know, I talked with them about it, about everything I just said. They have a full-time job, they can’t also be an expert and all this.
And at one point, it became negative and said, “Well, I just don’t think they’re as smart as people think they are.” And so I said, “Well, great. Answer this question. What was Wagner’s use of secondary dominant chords? What primarily did he use them for, especially Neapolitan chords?” And she looked at me like I was talking Greek. I said, “No, I seriously want an answer. If you’re so smart, what did romantic composers use secondary dominant chords primarily for what purpose?” I said, “These are not stupid people. These are some of the brightest people on the planet, but they’re not an expert in fiscal policy and all those things.”
So, I spent too much time on that, but I just hope there are some compliance people. I’m on your side. It’s a tough job. Audit, even tougher. They see you as, you know, the inspector general coming, and that makes them very nervous. So, the more people skills you can have, the more you can say, “I’m here to do it.” Because I’m telling you, 90%+ of the time, even the audit function, the person didn’t do it purposely wrong.
Andrea: Right.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: They simply violated one of those little tweaks and in 90%+ of the cases, they’re mitigated very easily. You have to follow through and make sure they get done because it’s not on everyone’s front burner. And then, of course, you have those cases of wrongdoing which gets back a little to the abuses of power, where we may go next.
Andrea: One of the things that came to mind when you were using that example is just the idea of strengths in general, gifts that we have to offer each other. A compliance person has that to offer, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that everybody is going to always be able to do what they’re able to do. It just means that the compliance person themselves has that to offer. That’s their contribution to the university, to the organization. I think sometimes we just expect people to understand us and give us what we want, like compliance. Maybe it’s not always about… like you said, it’s not always intentional that, you know, somebody doesn’t do it. Maybe this is something that you have to offer them.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Yes. You really hit on something there. One of the things that I’ve done multiple times in my role – having been a faculty member and then in administration and a dean and those kinds of things – is I have noticed this very rare phenomenon, and folks can reflect on it; we tend to think everybody else knows what we know. I mean, it’s just second nature to you and your job now doing all you do. But if I walked in to record a podcast, I would need training. I don’t know how to do that.
So, even in these big areas, we start from the understanding that the other person knows what I’m doing… and you just nailed it. Part of it’s walking and saying, “I’m here. I’m the audit officer. The purpose of my job is to look into…” Just give them a little background, that can even help.
Andrea: “And I’m for you as long as we’re working together to make this right.”
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Sure.
Andrea: Okay.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Yeah. And if it goes the other direction – we start finding negative things – it can become adversarial, but it needs to be done. And, again, as long as the culture of the organization is supporting that, it’ll be strong. Moving more to your question about leadership, it can be a little bit vexing. But I’d offer a few black and white things that I think… and you know me, I’m a gray guy.
Andrea: Are you referring to the healthy leadership?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Yeah.
Andrea: I don’t think I actually asked that question.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: No. I’m looking more at that managerial level.
Andrea: Okay.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: So, where I want to say a couple of things that we can do that I think are really important are to make sure that our policies are clear, that they are accessible. So, I’m the employee; I can look it up, and I can find it, and I can read it. You won’t believe how many institutions you go to – they don’t even know where those policies are. They can’t find them. So, they wonder what’s happening, and they need to be regularly updated. We talked about training; really good training must be continuous and ongoing. In short, we have to eliminate single points of failure. And in a single point of failure – the easiest way you can think about that – if there is one person that signs off on the check, and there is nobody else that has to approve that you’ve just created a problem for yourself. You’ve created an opportunity for an employee to do something wrong or even the appearance of doing something wrong.
So, there’s always got to be this sort of dual authentication, no matter what. And if you think about they say, “Okay, well, you get all the way up to the president; who’s looking at them?” Probably the system chancellor. In a corporate world, the board is looking over the shoulder of the CEO. So, it goes all the way to the top that there shouldn’t be single points of failure. And the last thing, while lately in the country… I won’t get too political. There have to be at least confidential if not anonymous reporting mechanisms. That’s how you stop abuse of power.
If I, the employee down the chain, fear retribution because I’m going to report something even criminal – let’s go to all the way there – with someone in the organization, I won’t report that potentially if I fear I’m the one that’s going to get fired. So, there must be 360 reviews and opportunities for confidential reporting to a compliance officer, to audit, and then they have to dispassionately look at those. We know that there can be cases where someone falsely accused somebody, but that’s why the whole process, in total, does work and that fights those abuses of power you’re talking about.
Andrea: How does someone know when they should report something and when they shouldn’t?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, here would be my initial take. That’s why I like the confidential and/or anonymous, and if folks don’t know that – confidential means somebody knows it’s you. Somebody who read it knows it’s you. Anonymous means you can make the report, and there’s nobody on this planet can know. So, there are options for both and there are pros and cons to both of those, but I’d say report it.
Andrea: If in doubt.
Dr. Neal Schnool: If in doubt, report, and then it’s up to our folks, and I’ve dealt with many of them. We have had some very wrongful accusations, and it comes out. If your person, you know, takes every complaint at face value and dispassionately and thoroughly reviews those, investigates those, the truth does come out. It really does. So, the truth can exonerate the other person and no one needs to really know about it even. So, if in doubt, report.
Andrea: Do you have any thoughts for somebody who might be in an institution that’s not so healthy, that they’re not so confident that there isn’t corruption up the chain of command perhaps? Maybe they’re not really sure if their report will actually be taken seriously or if something will happen with it. How does somebody approach this idea of reporting and following up with it when they’re in that kind of a situation? Do you have thoughts on that?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Yeah, well, it’s just a tough situation. I’m not going to joke with you. If the culture is that bad that you don’t have a… you know, for instance, my first example would be to go to your manager and ask them, or at the very least, is there any trusted colleague? You know, let’s say you’re feeling something about sexual harassment but you’re a little afraid to say anything to your boss because maybe they’ll think you’re a troublemaker. Is there anyone in the organization, a colleague, that you work with that you might talk to them as a place to start?
But we’ve got reporting mechanisms through our equity and diversity office through our HR office, through any supervisor, manager, or dean. So, it wouldn’t have to even be within, say, your unit. Maybe you could report it through another because you fear that. There should be a compliance and audit function and so on, and those ought to be confidential resources.
So, I’m only challenged because there is really no good answer for that person if the culture is so bad that complaints are ignored. But I will tell you that some avenues you can pursue there is outside the organization. Whether it’s a public institution or a private institution, they have to operate in compliance with federal state employment laws. And so you can go to the state level, you can go to the federal level and issue complaints.
And that has happened before, that a person doesn’t feel comfortable, and they make a complaint with the Nebraska, you know, Office of… you name it, disabilities or so on or so forth. And they will take up the complaint for you. So, it makes me sad that there are institutions that employees feel like they do not or cannot report, but in those cases, you really can find external advocacy as well.
Andrea: If you’re somebody coming into a situation where maybe you’ve been hired in a position like yours or an upper-level position to kind of make a change in health… There needs to be a healthier environment here, healthier perspective on the way that we listen to people, the way that we work with people. What are some of the initial things that somebody should think about when they are the one that’s coming in to help set the tone and make the changes?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, I mean, the best I can say… because every day there are people that genuinely feel like they’re not heard. And I will say that’s the one thing, to go in and say, “I have five things that I’m going to do here. They’re foolproof and they’re going to fix something that’s wrong…” Listen, listen, listen, listen, what are people really saying? I’ll give you an example so it’s not such a hot issue because people jump to, you know, criminal activity and sexual misconduct and so on. But in every organization I have ever worked, you do a survey and everyone says, “We have to improve communication.” I guarantee you; I’ve never seen that not come up in the top three in any culture.
You know what, I have not been successful yet at convincing anyone on a larger scale… and I’m not putting our groups down. We got people on campus that do, but back when I was a dean, everybody, “Well, let’s send more memos out.” Wait a minute, you didn’t ask them what that meant. So, we have more meetings and we send out more bulletins, and I don’t think people are saying when communication’s bad that x,y,z is happening. I think they say, “You aren’t listening.” And so, it’s not a pretty answer. I don’t have easy answers. But the answer is to listen, to engage genuinely with people. You better have a thick skin because they’re going to say some things, but that’s when you start hearing their issues when they do let loose and become a bit more emotional.
So, it’s all about listening and validating, honoring that they feel this way, not arguing with them right away. You don’t know if it’s true or not. It’s true in their world right now. So, I’d like to go into a long thing, “Well, then you need a strategic plan. You need to put together a blue route.” There could be a thousand different answers, but I just leave it with people, “Are you genuinely listening or as soon as they say a word like ‘more communication’, you start pinging off answers that you think will communicate better?”
So, you know, when they say, “I’m uncomfortable in the workplace environment,” you’ve got to dig a little bit. It could be that they’re feeling underappreciated. It could be that they’re feeling underpaid. It could be that they want to do more and feel like they have more skills and are asking you for professional development. But you won’t know that if you just go, “Uncomfortable,” and don’t listen further.
Andrea: Hmm. I love that. It’s hard. It’s hard to not feel easily offended. It’s hard to stay curious instead of making assumptions and that sort of thing, but it’s imperative in that kind of a situation. Love that.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Yeah.
Andrea: You know, we’re facing so much right now with COVID-19 and a lot of the spotlight on social injustice and in particular, racism. When somebody is a leader of an institution, they have some sort of leadership capabilities or position, what does healthy leadership look like in such complicated times? Especially when things are getting dicey and when there’s this kind of social unrest, perhaps even inside the company, inside the organization.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, I mean, it is truly a time for courageous leaders. And really, sort of brave decisions have to be made that you’re going to be lucky if you get 60-40 approvals anymore on almost any decision you make. And I don’t mean that, again, as an either/or proposition. But if you take the COVID situation, are you delivering courses on campus or not? And some people will look at it from a student perspective. I’ve heard very intelligent people. I could cite the articles. We come from a system that our chancellor early looked at all of the information, his whole team thought it through and said, “You know, we’re gonna continue to offer instruction, but let’s minimize the people on campus for the safety of everyone.”
We have another institution across the country that said, “You know, we’re doing a real disservice by not having classes. The students that are in class are 99% healthy. It doesn’t affect them very much. They’re gonna do great.” But in each case, there’s not an either/or. What about the faculty that are sixty-five? What about the students who go home and care for a mother or father that has cancer, diabetes, so on? It is just there are so many factors involved in that one alone, and neither of those people are right or wrong. They’re using the best information in the region and locality they’re at with guidance from health.
So literally, what sticks out from that, you have to be brave, you have to listen. There we are again; those leaders are listening. They’re gathering experts who aren’t afraid to debate and differ and offer them different viewpoints. And ultimately, the leader has to decide the direction. Then they have to set the policies, the procedures, the plans, and of course, each decision creates fifteen more decisions, and on and on and on. But you really have to have built into your culture the ability to disagree professionally, to allow voices to be heard and not let any one leader within that structure over-dominate. And then just continue to look…
I will also say that there are just some plain restraining factors. So, I’ll give you a silly example. So, somebody says, “Oh, we’ll be able to clean the rooms better than we ever have before.” And that’s great. I’m not disagreeing with them. And I’ll say, “Great, so do you have the staff to do it?” “Well, I don’t think we have enough staff, plus with the budget reduction, we won’t have them.” “Do you have enough product to clean?” “So, we’re gonna have people use Lysol wipes and clean their office space” “When can we get Lysol wipes?” “Oh, maybe January.” So, if you back up, “How does that help us in August?” So, these are things that everybody’s working through. But if their supply chain is good, and they’ve got a plan, and they’ve reduced this, then they may be able to start up.
So, I just tell people I know it’s a tough time, say, the COVID front. I hope they just, at least, in the back of their mind… governors have the hardest job that I’ve seen in my lifetime. There are no good answers. And if we don’t start up the economy, people are not getting medical screenings and they’re losing their jobs. So, these answers ended a long, long time ago. With the social thing, you know, all I’ll say at this point is I think it’s always wonderful. You know, I take it back to, you know, once we have to lay the axe to the root of the tree of liberty once in a while. And when people feel like they’re not being heard – worse, that they’re being treated terribly unfairly – then absolutely – it’s what our country is founded on – should protest and have their voices be heard.
And while they’re the toughest situations, I’ve always found through life, the toughest situations lead to growth. And I hope we grow and learn.
Andrea: Hmm, so true. And what you’ve said about culturally establishing this, “It’s okay to disagree…” you were talking about that in terms of COVID earlier and then you were also talking a lot about listening. Those seem to also apply here in this idea of social unrest. If we can have a conversation and disagree, how do we do that in a healthy way? And how does a leader demonstrate that or kind of lead the way in having a healthy conversation?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, I think we’re seeing it all around the country. I mean, we’ve got several leaders that are stepping up and doing that. We’re seeing it right on the street with protesters and different mayors and so and so, meeting face to face and talking and doing it in a reasonable manner. And reasonable is not the right word… Doing it in a respectful manner to one another, both directions. I don’t think it’s that hard. We’ve talked about the listening – to be open, to honor, and truly listen to that perspective – but then, Andrea, I think, you know, we’ve done this. We’ve done this, not just on this issue; we’ve done it on others. And I think what’s loud and clear this time is, “Not again!” Have we learned nothing? Have we gained nothing?
So, there are going to need to be some sort of actions that come out of this. And so different mayors have already announced things like, “We’re gonna look at reinvesting to handle the income in unequal distribution.” And it really has turned upside down. And to provide better educational opportunities; you’ll see any number of initiatives already coming. But there needs to be practical, visible, helpful, not just reactionary…
And again, I go back to my example. Just think about that simple word “communication” that had so many permutations. We have to involve the very people that are expressing this to us to be engaged in that conversation. And the leader is going to have to be that very flexible but firm in-between making sure the voices are heard.
But, again, making sure the voices are heard. We can’t just have the city hall just ring off five things they’re going to do. Did you engage them in that discussion because that, again, is just sort of explaining to people again in another way, and it’s just not good. It’s not good.
Andrea: So, in kind of wrapping things up here, Dr. Schnoor, when you think of somebody being a “Voice of Influence”, do you have any advice, any suggestions for us in how we can better be a “Voice of Influence”?
Dr. Neal Schnoor: Well, there’s just so many things. We had a whole podcast we looked at that last time, and you’ve had so many guests having a different facet on it.
Andrea: It’s always interesting to hear what people have to say, though.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: It is good. Today, I’m sitting here looking at leaders, and I think you just have to have tremendous courage. I would go with what you said; find your real skills, your real talents and chase those and offer your unique voice. But don’t get too lost in why you’re not the voice for everybody. Here’s something I will tell you that the greatest leaders, no matter how great they are, absolutely – and somebody out there can call me and tell me if they found somebody that’s different – they’re great because they have great people around them. They are supported by great people.
I didn’t say everyone was a martyr or a saint or whatever, but they assemble a team with the unique talents. They’re able to supervise effectively, to guide, to listen to that advice. That team works well together, but none of these decisions… there’s this false idea that if we get “super CEO” in… that’s a new model we’re really stuck in; go hire a superstar. I guarantee you that the company doesn’t go well if you don’t have great work programs, if you don’t have good supervisors all the way throughout the level, and that’s functional everywhere.
So, how do you become a “Voice of Influence”? Hone your unique talents, your unique skills, and then I’ll just add the other part just so it’s not all sunshine – that’s not easy to do. Sometimes we can’t see our unique skills, but I’d also say be quiet. You’re not an expert on everything. So, when you’re sitting around the table – and I’ve got an expert in counseling – listen more than you talk.
Well, I read a tweet and it said, “Good grief! Keep the tweet to yourself and listen until you really have something thoughtful to add.” But we often have people that assume they’re experts at everything, and they want to influence everything. So, I think it’s a time if you think you want to step up and be a mayor or you want to be a president of a campus, you not only have to have skills in crisis. You have to understand the academic mission. You have to be able to engage with donors. You have to engage with politicians. You have to be able to eloquently give small, you know, addresses. You’re asked to pin articles. If you don’t have all of those skills, everything I just mentioned, there’s an expert helping you underneath that.
So, being part of that machine and bringing it together is the thing that I love, and having those pieces work together. I think that’s a unique skill I have. So, everybody has got to work to find it. But the word I’ll leave with or if there’s a follow-up from you is we need to listen more. And I mean, really listen, and then follow up with questions like you’re doing, rather than asking the first question and then deciding whether I like or dislike the bursar, whether they’re Democrat or Republican, or whether they agree with it. Engage a little bit deeper and have a thoughtful dialogue.
Andrea: And that’s why I keep asking this question. I love the timely response. Thank you. Thank you for being a “Voice of Influence” here for our listeners today, Dr. Schnoor.
Dr. Neal Schnoor: It’s an absolute pleasure, and thank you for the work you’re doing. It’s so important.