Natasha Sistrunk Robinson is the President of T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc., where she provides customized executive leadership coaching, consulting, and mentoring services.

Natasha is an author and sought-after international speaker with more than 20 years of leadership experience in the military, federal government, academic, and nonprofit sectors.  She is the Visionary Founder of the nonprofit, Leadership LINKS, Inc. and the Host of A Sojouner’s Truth podcast.

In this episode, Natasha and I discuss her expertise in mentorship in the context of church, gender, and racial and ethnic diversity.

Take a listen to the episode!

Mentioned in this episode:

• T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc.
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson’s Website
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson’s Books
• A Sojourner’s Truth Podcast
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson’s Blog
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson on Facebook
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson on Twitter
• Natasha Sistrunk Robinson on Instagram

 

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Transcript

 People of influence know that their voice matters and that they can make it matter more.  I’m Andrea Wenburg, and this is the Voice of Influence podcast.

Today, I’m speaking with Natasha Sistrunk Robinson, who is president of T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc. where she provides customized executive leadership coaching, consulting, and mentoring services.  She is an author and sought-after international speaker with more than twenty years of leadership experience in military, federal government, academic, and nonprofit sectors.  She is the visionary founder of the nonprofit Leadership LINKS and host of “A Sojourner’s Truth” podcast.

Today, Natasha and I visit about her particular expertise and mentorship.  And we talk about it in light of and in a context of church, in a context of gender, and in a context of racial and ethnic diversity.  I think that you’re going to get a lot out of this conversation with Natasha.

Andrea:  All right, Natasha, it is great to have you with us on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Thank you so much for having me.  I really appreciate it.

Andrea:  Would you tell us a little bit about your business, and ministry, and just kind of what you do?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Sure.  So, I’m Natasha Sistrunk Robinson.  I have my hands in a few things, actually, but I’m a small business owner.  So, I’m an entrepreneur, and I do that work of leadership consulting, leadership executive coaching and mentoring through my business T3 Leadership Solutions, Inc.  And then as far as ministry, I am an author.  I write books.  I write Bible study.  So that also means I go out and do quite a bit of speaking, teaching, training, facilitating around mostly faith, leadership, mentorship, and some reconciliation on cultural awareness, cultural competence, and diversity type things as it relates to justice.  And so that’s what I do for writing in ministry and I have a nonprofit, Leadership LINKS, where we do a lot of similar work as far as raising up the next generation of leaders.

Andrea:  And how did things kind of get started for you?  You have a background in the military, is that right?

Natasha S. Robinson:   Sure.  Yeah.  I graduated from Naval Academy in 2002.  And then I was commissioned as an officer in the United States Marine Corps.  So, I was actually a financial management officer, and I did that for six years.  And then I went to work at Department of Homeland Security, where I continue some similar work as far as financial management in the Science and Technology Directorate.  So, I was actually in the International Corporate Programs Office.

And so we did a lot of interagency, international agreements, a lot of grants, government contract, and that’s a lot of the work that I did for that agency.  Then I went to seminary, and that took me down a different path of ministry and writing and things, and that’s kind of how we got to where we are now.

Andrea:  Okay.  So, I also took a very strange path from teaching to seminary and then where I’m at now too.  So, I’m curious, why did you make that particular jump to seminary?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think, you know, just my faith – I love the word of God, but I also love connecting with people.  And so I’ve always been like a Bible teacher, like a small group leader in my home and the church.  And so I was doing that even though I was working a full-time job; it’s like my second job, and if you count family, like your third job.  And so, you know, when I went to go to seminary, my desire was just to become a better Bible teacher.

So, I literally was going to go to seminary, and then go back to leading small group and Bible study in my home ‘cause I was very content with that.  But while I was in seminary, God started stirring my heart to write.  And so, I started writing articles.  I started publishing then and by the time I got to the end of seminary, I had developed a manuscript for my first book, which was on mentoring as intentional discipleship.

 Andrea:  And now you’re doing a doctorate degree, is that right?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, I am.  So, I’m in a doctorate program – it’s a cohort between North Park Theological Seminary and Fuller, and it’s a doctorate of ministry in Urban Ministry Leadership.  And so I’m about halfway through the coursework of that, and then, of course, next year, if all goes well, I’ll be starting my project in dissertation work.

Andrea:  Awesome!  And do you have a specific kind of focus for that?  Why that in particular?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  So, I’m trying to figure… as far as the focus, I’m trying to figure that out.  Normally, people decide before they go; I didn’t.  I primarily decided to go with this program because of the person I got to study under.  So, my academic advisor is Dr. Soong-Chan Rah.  He’s a Korean-American, used to be a pastor but now he spent of his more recent years in the academy.  And so I selected the program – and this kind of answers your question about why – because of who I got to study under.  I wanted to read more broadly and wanted to hear from a lot of diverse voices, not just within America but also globally.  And he has the depth of experience, exposure, and education to offer me that that I wasn’t going to continue to read the same people that I read in my master’s program.  And so I’m really thankful that I chose to study under him.

Andrea:  Have you made a lot of decisions in your life based on who would be mentoring you?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Certainly early on.  In the military, for sure, and when I took my second job at Department of Homeland Security, that decision was based on the person that would be my supervisor.  She was a Hispanic lady.  She was a Christian.  She was a graduate of the Naval Academy.  She graduated in the second class of women.  She’s a retired Navy commander and she was in higher ranks of government officials.

I had other job offers with other great companies, but I thought I could learn a lot from her and I wanted to learn a lot from her so that’s what the decision I made, so certainly in my professional life.  Ministry, though, has been a lot different because – and this has been a kind of a tension for my leadership… whereas, you know, being in the military, you have a clear path for mentorship.  You have a path for promotion.  You have a path for career progression and development in your own field, your professional field, and I knew exactly what that was.  But coming into ministry, not having that set out as a goal or a plan for my life, I really felt like I didn’t have leaders or mentors to help guide me for where the Lord was leading me.

And so, a lot of that was really dependent on asking the Lord what He had for me.  And I think the challenge and tension of that has been I’ve always been a leader, and sometimes serving in capacities where, you know, you can’t lead or you’re not allowed to lead because you’re a woman or because you’re a person of color.  And they may or may not say that, but at the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to.  So that’s been a struggle and a exercise in humility and wisdom and discipline about how can you live fully into your calling and out of your identity, even when your environment or the places where the people you’re interacting with don’t share the same values.

Andrea:  Okay, you just asked a really great question I’d love for you to answer.  How can you live fully and into the fullness of who you are when you’re being constrained?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think one thing I’m learning and I’m always learning – and the irony, I think, sometimes when you’re a leader or you’re good at something, you think you got a lesson.  Like, “I got that, I understand that,” and then there are times when you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I did not really act out on what I know.”  And so I think for me – and it’s a journey so it’s not even completed – but it’s really about being clear about who I am and what God has called me to, and then, you know, really being… I remember one of my mentors said to me, “God is your sponsor.”

And so, really being open to the doors that God opens for me and walking through them confidently, and then when doors are closed to just say, “Well, that wasn’t for me,” or “At least it wasn’t for me in this time.”  And that doesn’t mean sometimes you don’t need to kick doors down because I think you need to do that too when it’s appropriate.  But for me, that’s a process of discernment, and getting wise counsel from people who know me well and people who are actually for me.

And I would say this too; it’s also been just the confidence in the security of that knowing then fueling the decisions I make.  So, there are times when I’ve quit jobs.  I’ve walked away from opportunities.  I’ve walked away from, you know, certain institutions or institutionalism because they weren’t serving the calling that God had on my life.  And so that has been a part of my journey and path as well.

Andrea:  Is it hard to make those decisions, it’s hard to discern when to knock down a door and when to just keep knocking?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, absolutely it is.  And then, you know, I think we need to ask like, “God, what is my role?  What are you calling me to in this season?”  And then sometimes I go and I fight for stuff, and then sometimes I’m silent, you know, honestly.  And I don’t think you should do either if it’s going to result in sin or disobedience.  But I think sometimes that you do the right thing at the wrong time or you do the right thing in the wrong way, and you don’t actually get the results that you want.  And so that also is a spirit of discernment of, “Okay, God, not only am I going to be in this space, not only am I going to have a seat at the table, not only am I going to use my voice, but how do you want me to do those things?”  Even that needs to be steward.

Andrea:  Yeah, you know, something that I’ve said a lot is voice equals choice.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Mm hmm.

Andrea:  You just need to choose wisely, but that’s a hard thing when you feel like your voice is being suppressed or repressed or pushed down, and it’s not something that you have control over.  It is hard to feel like you do have a choice, and so you just really want to get it out sometimes.  What would you say to somebody who’s just like, “I just want to be able to say what I want to say?”

Natasha S. Robinson:  Well, I think, honestly, I think that’s more of a challenge for women too, because I think sometimes men speak and they don’t have anything to say.  And they speak very confidently when they don’t have anything to say in the same way that men will apply for jobs that they’re aren’t technically qualified for.  And because they take the risk to bet on themselves and apply, they might get the job; and in that job, they may learn new skills and everything.

You know, I’ve been spending a lot of time in the last few years reading, you know, through the Exodus and Moses narrative, and remembering when God called Moses at the burning bush.  And you know, the first thing that Moses says, “Well, you know, I can’t talk,” right?  And so he starts making all these excuses for why he can’t do what God calls him to do, and what God says to him is that, “I’m gonna be with you.  I’m gonna teach you what to say and provide what you need.”

And so, I think for women, we’ve been conditioned and socialized into thinking that we have to have it all together.  We have to be perfect.  We have to be right.  We have to be ready when we show up for something.  And sometimes what God is just looking for is a yes, and availability, and understanding that in the process of saying yes that the journey is where we are actually learning.  And our leadership is being formed for us to be ready for that thing that God has for us ten years, twenty years down the road that we can’t even see or don’t even know about.

And so we think it’s about this one job, this one opportunity, or this one relationship.  And God is going to use that job, relationship, opportunity to prepare you for whatever, the next thing.  But if you don’t say yes, you know, your knees trembling to the thing that’s right in front of you, you’re never going to get the preparation and the training that you need to prepare you for the thing the Lord sees way down the road.

Andrea:  Hmm, I love that.   The temptation to say no in those situations because you don’t feel ready is strong for a lot of people.  I think you’re right.  So, women need to bet more on themselves, huh?

Natasha S. Robinson:  I think women need to get clear about who we are and love that person, and lead out of that authenticity.  So that means when we’re entering into places where people don’t validate that, then we have a choice; and to your point, voice is choice.  You have a choice of whether you’re going to stay or whether you’re going to go.  You have a choice of whether you’re going to be a reformer within a system, or you’re going to go build a separate system or table.  You have a choice of whether this is a relationship that you’re going to stay in or not.

And so, I think that relates to everything from who you decide to marry, to what friends you keep in your circle, to what school you go to or what training you get to what career field you pursue, to what church you become a member of.  I think all those things really are birthed out of how we see ourselves second, how we see God first.

And how we see ourselves a lot of times is tainted by projections that other people have placed on us and not from a place of first saying, “How does God see me?”  Because God created each of us uniquely, and that means that even the flaws and the weaknesses that we have that God can use for good, He absolutely can.  And so, we don’t use those things to disqualify ourselves or to discredit our being.  It may mean that we need some training and some development, but it doesn’t disqualify us, you know, and so I think that once we get clarity about those things then that shapes the other things.

Andrea:  Okay.  Talk to me about mentorship.  You talk about this quite a bit and have written about it quite a bit.  There’s a quote from…I’m not sure where your quote is from, but I have a quote.  “Mentoring is a trusted partnership where people share wisdom that fosters spiritual growth and leads to transformation as mentors and mentees grow in their love of Christ, knowledge of self, and love of others.”  Why is mentoring a big deal to you?

Natasha S, Robinson:  Yeah, so that’s a quote from my book, Mentor for Life, and I’m talking about mentoring there specifically as intentional discipleship.  So, I am talking about mentoring from a Christian framework.  And I say that it’s important because not all mentoring we do is from that framework.  And I do, you know, mentoring in very diverse environments just because of the nature of my professional experience and background, and my work.

So, it’s important for a few reasons.  Number one, I think mentoring is critically important for leadership development.  And so, the way I was trained at the Naval Academy, for example, like, mentoring was built into our professional development program.  I mean, just nobody graduated from the Naval Academy without having been mentored or mentoring someone, and it was built into the system.  And then, I think, you still see that – sometimes formally, sometimes informally – in the military.

And I think, you know, that’s one of the reasons the military gets the results that it gets because of the ways that we by and large are very intentional in how we develop leaders.  So, it’s not just about influence and platforms; it’s about actually how you connect with people, how you motivate, and what you actually get done to it.  Are you actually able to accomplish a mission?  And so that’s just ingrained in me early in my very formative years.  Not just as a child, but certainly again, the Naval Academy played a significant role in that.

And so, I think the interesting thing for me was when I transitioned or pivoted right from more of professional work as my full-time focus to ministry work as my full-time focus, and seeing that – you know, especially in a church, for example, a local church – a lot of the issues that people were having, in my observation, were leadership issues.  They were a lack of leadership and so if the leadership was better being then the environment, the culture of the community or the church would be better, and therefore the mission would go forth and we would be more effective in our work.

And so, I started to write about it because in a Christian environment, I thought, “Wow!”  Well, part of the reason the leadership is so poor is number one, let’s be honest, pastors don’t get leadership training in seminary.

Andrea:  That’s true.

Natasha S. Robinson:  You can have a great pastor who can execute a passage and can understand original languages and can be a great preacher, and that does not mean they’re a great shepherd.  It does not mean that they can be a great executive.  It doesn’t mean that they know how to motivate their team, or cast vision, or hold people accountable.  There are all kinds of critical leadership skills that pastors don’t get in seminary.  And so if they’re not getting it in seminary, I think you have to ask the question, where are they getting it?  And the answer is, they’re not getting it, which is why we have so much leadership challenges.  So that’s number one.

But I think the other issue – because that’s a top-down issue – our bottom-up issue is we falter because we allow people in the church to volunteer, and then we don’t provide them any training.  And then we wonder why the ministries are not as effective as they could be, or they’re a mess.  Or their relationships are not as healthy or honoring to the things we say we believe in the word because we have not provided leadership training, development, mentorship even for our volunteers.  So, you can volunteer on Saturday and be leading something on Monday next week, all right?

Whereas my posture would be, “Okay, you’re volunteering, that’s great.  Let’s see about whether or not you have the temperament to do the thing that your heart desires to do, because maybe you might be a better fit over here.  And then what skills do you have and what are the gaps over here that you could possibly lead, and then what training and mentoring that needs to be provided so you can do this well?  Because I want you to be confident in it.  I want you to know that this is the right place for you in this season, that is a mutually beneficial experience, and that the people under you are thriving.”  And they won’t do that if the leaders aren’t trained, if they aren’t healthy, and if they don’t know how to maintain healthy relationships.  They just won’t.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Do you have any suggestions about how organizations – whether it be a church or a company – could better incorporate mentorship into their culture?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah, so the thing is that, you know, we think about this as an add-on thing.  And so then the question or the statement becomes… pre, you know, our current pandemic situation was we don’t have time.  Well, you know, my belief is that prayer, I think is the first foundation, and then the second foundation is how well you are training and equipping your leaders.  Because if you do that well, then what I believe the Bible calls us to is really multiplication, and that happens when people are on mission.

And this is what Paul writes about in Ephesians 4, that some people are apostles and some are teachers.  You know, they’ll have the gift of helps, all these things, but they’re doing it for the edification of the body.  And so, I want every believer to be clear about, not just who they are, their identity, their being in Christ, but also what God has called them to.  Obviously, our first calling is to be a disciple, a student, a follower of Jesus.  So not just that we believe Jesus, we have a relationship with Jesus, it’s not just that Jesus is our Savior, but does Jesus have authority to guide the direction and priorities in my life?  That’s the first answer that we have to make, and then once we do that then say, “Okay, if that answer is yes, then what work specifically has God called me to?”

Again, so, some people would be teachers and some would be hospitable, you know, have the gift of  helps, and some people are healing, and some people will, you know, be evangelists.  So, there are all these different roles we play.  And Paul gives a metaphor of the body in 1st Corinthians 12, right?  That we all have different gifts, but it’s the same spirit and the same calling.  And those gifts should be operating together, just like a healthy body that if I bump my toe and I pull the toenail back too far, I’m going to feel that – my whole body is going to feel that because it’s hurt or it’s weak.

But in the same way, if I’m eating well and I’m drinking water, I’m getting enough sleep and my body… I’m working out, and I’m strong then I feel I have the energy and I feel like I can do anything.  The longer version, the short of it is mentoring cannot be, “We’ll do it when we get around to it,” and it’s a one-time program or event.  It has to be a part of the system in how we do things day-to-day in our operations in church, and it has to be at the foundation of it.

Andrea:  Now, you said that you also do work in diversity.  And so I’m curious, when people are trying to or an organization is trying to incorporate mentoring better into their culture, as you’ve described, could you also share with us some key points that you would feel are really important when it comes to honoring the voices of others and being an ally to other folks who are different than us and that sort of thing?  Could you share with us some of your thoughts on that?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  I think Paul gave us a good analogy there too, right?  You know, the hand can’t say to eye, “I don’t need you,” you know, or the foot can’t say to the arm like, “I don’t need you,” and so he talks about that.  He talks about, you know, the people in the body that we consider weaker, we should see with higher honor.  He talks about that, and so I think there are things that we see in the Bible that are very clear.

Obviously, I think we need to look to Jesus, you know.  I was just doing some Bible reading, studying, and writing yesterday about Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman in John 4 of Him making an intentional choice to engage her, to ask questions.  And so, He’s speaking to her as a Samaritan, which Jews and Samaritans had no interaction with each other.

But He’s also speaking to her as a woman, and He’s also speaking to her as a woman who’s been ostracized in her community because of her social conditioning.  You know, being someone who has been divorced multiple times and so probably the talk of the town.  So, there are all kinds of things that we see in the text where we’re not just taking it at face value.  We’re doing a little bit more, a little deeper study, and we’re hearing about the text from more diverse voices too.  That’s why I think it’s critically important that regardless of where your local congregation is that you’re reading broadly, that you are listening – especially right now, we have the opportunity to listen online to different preachers, not just a person in our home church.

And I think that’s critically important because it’s not just about having a friend of a different racial ethnic group.  I think that’s important, but when we start getting to understand issues like injustice in history, and what happens regarding sociology or in society and culture, biases, and intersectionality.  Some of these words people may or may not be familiar with, but the point is that these are systemic issues that have very long legs.  And so those issues are not solved just by people making friends.  Those issues are solved because we have to have an elevated conversation now about how systems work, and how people are impacted by those systems, and how we can actually shape the direction of those systems.

And that doesn’t happen if we’re not reading more broadly, if we’re not very intentional in understanding our need to hear from more diverse voices, not just racial and ethnic in the United States, but also globally.  I think the Western church and American church misses out a great deal because we don’t have a regard or not even attentive to what God is seeing and how He’s moving and what He’s speaking to the global church.

I think there are things that the global church can teach us, especially, considering that the global church is growing, you know, in Asia and Africa, and is declining in America – you know, at least, before the pandemic.  And so, I just think there’s a humility that’s required to listen and learn from other people, and not thinking that we have all the answers or we don’t need them as Paul says.

Andrea:  As we are wrapping up the spring and moving into summer on this podcast, we’re going to be talking a little bit more about power dynamics and abuse of power…  And I would love for you to help us transition into that right now before we go.  When you think of people who are in that position where they maybe don’t want to abuse their power, maybe they’re in a situation where they may just not have the awareness that what they’re doing is not helpful or that it is abuse of some kind, spiritual abuse, or just contributing to that systemic dynamic that you were just talking about.  Could you share or speak to that person who is open to hearing about what they should be thinking about, what they should be doing?  How should they really approach how to think about their own power dynamic in their environment?

Natasha S. Robinson:  Yeah.  Spiritually, I do believe that power in it’s initial state… so it can be used for good or evil, right?  And so, we see that.  So, I think when we go back to the Garden, the cultural mandate for us is that humans have responsibilities that, for example, plants don’t have, that animals don’t have.  And that responsibility of stewardship of the earth is part of our being made in the image of God.  And so there’s a responsibility that we have just for being human that I think we need to understand and not take lightly, especially when we think about, you know, the current situation we’re in and what God might be asking of us.  So that’s number one.

But then I think the other part of that is, you know, that we all… again, most of us in America, you know, if we can read and we have technology and, you know, we have our basic needs met, we have more power than most of the people in the world.  So, we’re not comparing to the neighbor down the street or the impoverished neighborhood fifteen minutes down the road, but just in the world.  And so what we do or don’t do given those things matters, and I think sometimes we’re not challenging ourselves to think about what we’re doing and how it impacts other people. 

And then there are ways, I think, we just honestly need to be repentant.  We need to confess and repent, because there are ways that we’re complicit in things that we, you know, might not want to be in.  So, for example, you know, I pay taxes and I vote, but I don’t necessarily agree with everything that the person I voted for that they may do, every policy they put in place, every legislation they sign.  And quite honestly, we’re not even looking at every legislation that they sign.  And so there are things that they may sign that I’m not agreeable with, but I voted for them; or I’ve paid taxes and so my taxes are supporting those efforts.  And so that’s just humbling that I think we need to be always asking the Lord to forgive us and have mercy on us for the ways that we sin that we don’t even know about, right?  And so I think that’s important.

And then lastly, this is where the mentorship piece comes in, but I think also, professionally, that sometimes we need professional help.  So, the mentorship could be, you know, it’s not just getting a black friend, or a person of color as a friend, or an impoverished person as a friend, or a disadvantaged or marginalized person as a friend.  Again, all those things are great, but if the power dynamics are not there, where they’re seen as a peer or equally valued, then even that relationship is going to be tainted.

And so, I think that we need to think about, you know, what ways might getting professional help be a good tool and resource, and that could be through spiritual direction, right?  It can be through therapy.  It can be through executive coaching where you have someone that has a better understanding of the issues but you know, they’re for you.  That’s why they’re partnering with you in the work, but they’re going to give you an objective.  They’re going to step away from it.  They’re not so personally involved.  They’re not out to get you, but they can give you some different ways to consider and look at some things, and also offer you some education.

So, I think at the bottom of this, a lot of it is people are just ignorant about the issues, and that takes time.  That is not a one and done thing.  That is a lot of time to get smart about the issues before you try to make decisions and speak on things, or even being an advocate.  Like, you need to understand the issues, and so I think that’s where the professional help connection come in.

Andrea:  Okay, great.  Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit about where people can engage you for professional help with like that, or learn about your books and the other things that you offer? 

Natasha S. Robinson:  Sure, yeah.  So, leadership consulting and coaching are offered through my website, my business T3, so t3leadershipsolutions.com.  So, you can find me there, and I’m offering virtual options as well for training facilitation and leadership executive coaching or mentoring.  So I’m glad to do that.  And then for my ministry stuff, you can find that, including my podcast information, at natashasrobinson.com.  

And then I’m also on Twitter, Facebook for Natasha Sistrunk Robinson, and Instagram.  So, I’m on all those platforms.  And then lastly, my blog is A Sista’s Journey, where I do writing.  And then all of my books, Mentor for Life or A Sojourner’s Truth, or I have a Bible study on the Nicene Creed, all of that you can find just searching Google or on Amazon – you can find it there – or on my website.

Andrea:  We will be sure to link to your website, which it appears that a lot of that is linked on your website.  So we’ll make sure that that is connected to our show notes so that it’s very easy for people to find there as well.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Wonderful!

Andrea:  Thank you so much for sharing your voice of influence with our listeners today, Natasha.

Natasha S. Robinson:  Thank you, Andrea.  I appreciate the time.