Today we’re extracting the key takeaways from the series we’ve done this summer about power dynamics and the abuse of power.
We started this series because we recognized how important it was to directly address the unhealthy imbalance of power and unhealthy use of power.
The first step is to be able to clearly recognize the abuse of power and then to stand up in the face of the abuse of power. In this episode, we’re covering why all of this matters, how to know when we should step in, how to step in without causing additional pain, and so much more.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Voice of Influence episodes:
-
Free Resource Download and Lifeline Course Information (You can also text VOILIFELINE to 44222)
Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.
Transcript
Hey there! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. Today, Rosanne and I are back.
Andrea: Rosanne, you want to say hi?
Rosanne Moore: Hi, everybody! Good to be with you again today!
Andrea: And today, we’re going to talk about the podcast series that we’ve done this summer, about power dynamics and the abuse of power, really. You know, I think when we started talking about how important it was to look at this and to think about how people wanting influence and things, how it can turn into something that’s not healthy, we really wanted to make sure that we started to more directly address that unhealthy imbalance of power and unhealthy use of power.
So, we put together this series this summer in order to be able to, first, help us all recognize the abuse of power more clearly because it’s so easy to kind of go through life and not actually realize what’s going on when somebody is being taken advantage of or there are unhealthy dynamics within a group.
So, just number one, being able to recognize the abuse of power. Number two, we really wanted to focus also the importance of standing up in the face of the abuse of power. So, why does it matter? When should we step in and how should we step in? We don’t want to cause additional pain or make things worse for somebody or stir the pot when it doesn’t need to be stirred kind of thing. So, how do we know when to really engage with it and when not to? And then finally, number three, to be savvy, to know what to do – how to decide what to do about it.
So, Rosanne, when we were pulling together this episode, we decided to kind of give a summary of the podcast episodes that we had this summer. First of all, would you take us through the series and just kind of give us an overarching view of what we covered?
Rosanne Moore: Sure. Well, in Episode 143, we talked about “Deceptive Myths About the Abuse of Power”. There were many things we covered in that specific myth, but one of the main things we covered was that coercive control is the core issue of abuse in abuse of any kind. That’s really the bottom-line issue is coercive control. When we talked about “Deceptive Myths About Abuse of Power”, the second part – which was in Episode 145 – one of the things that we drew out of that is that abusive people are typically very likable. And because they’re likable and because they have a good sense of what to offer, they are very effective at manipulating others.
So, it’s really important for us to have the humility to recognize that everybody, given the right set of circumstances, can be vulnerable to deception. Then in 144, we talked with Dr. Lucretia Berry about racism and the work that she does in anti-racism education. And I really appreciated that one of the things that she said is that when we’re looking at racist systems, it’s not an accusation. It’s not about accusing, but it’s recognizing that the systems that we’re all part of have degrees of unhealthy components. And so it’s just really important that we’re willing to play our part in dismantling the things that are not good and that we are proactive in being educated about what is not healthy so that we can equip ourselves and our children to do better.
Andrea: That was really good, yeah.
Rosanne Moore: It was.
Andrea: And I appreciate that point that you’re bringing up about not being accusatory because I think that was an incredibly valuable piece of what she brought to that conversation was it’s not just about making people feel bad. It’s about recognizing… What system is completely healthy?
Rosanne Moore: Right. One of the things she talked about was it’s not saying everybody’s, you know, a horrible white supremacist. It’s that all of us have ways we’ve been brought up in systems that contribute to viewpoints that aren’t necessarily true. And so being willing to each of us recognize what have I been taught to believe that may not be an accurate perception doesn’t mean I view people disrespectfully….
Andrea: Or that I am a bad person in general.
Rosanne Moore: Right, right. It may just mean that I have a wrong perception of what the reality of somebody else’s experience is. And so, having the humility to be willing to learn about that is really important.
Andrea: Mhm, and then onto 146.
Rosanne Moore: Yes. So, 146 was Naghmeh Panahi. She talked about “Finding Her True Voice After Domestic Violence”. And a couple things that stood out from her episode, I think, were that it’s so typical – not just in domestic violence situations, although it’s certainly is common there – but in general, society tends to blame victims of abusive situations. The burden is put on the victim. And so, it’s really vital for us not to remain silent, but to speak out and act on the behalf of the oppressed instead of adding to the burden they’re already under and just saying, “Well, they should just be able to get themselves out of it.” Recognizing that there are so many hurdles and that trauma plays a role in the burden that they’re dealing with. And so, there’s a real need for people to be proactive in helping those who are being oppressed for whatever reason.
Andrea: Yeah. I know that people really loved hearing her story because it was such national and international news.
Rosanne Moore: Sure.
Andrea: Her husband having been imprisoned in Iran for his faith, and she spent three years trying to get him freed from that situation. But even in the midst of that, she was experiencing abuse from him because they’d be on the phone, and he would say horrible things to her and try to control her and try to diminish her in her thoughts about who she is and that sort of thing. There was so much to just the story itself that I really hope that, as a listener, you’ll go back and listen to that if you haven’t heard it yet. That story is really compelling. But then she made so many really good points just like you were saying, Rosanne.
Rosanne Moore: Yes. And she talked too about some of her colleagues and the twists and turns that their stories took. And one of the comments that she made… because she deals a lot not only with domestic violence but with the systems that women internationally find themselves in that are oppressive, religious persecution, and the systems’ customs, social customs in other countries that are very oppressive. One of the things that she brought out was that all of that is diminishing, but what’s hardest is when it is an intimate partner, it’s the person that you expect to love and care for you. And everybody else thinks everything’s fine, and you’re living in this private hell that others don’t see.
Andrea: Which was just so exemplified and like, magnified by her situation where she was in the public eye and was fighting for her husband. And so to anybody that was an onlooker, you would just think that things were great with their marriage.
Rosanne Moore: Right.
Andrea: But that just wasn’t the case. I remember one of the things that she said was just how she so wanted to be a good wife and she was trying to figure out how. “How can I be a good wife? I’m obviously not doing it right because he’s still mad at me. I’m doing all the things for him, but he’s still mad at me. He still treats me poorly,” and that sort of thing. So, that was really, really compelling too. And then in Episode 147…
Rosanne Moore: Right. We had Dr. Debra Wingfield talking about “Why We Need to Understand Trauma and Coercive Control”. And she really brought a lot to the table in terms of the long-term effects of trauma. We can often think that, “Okay, if somebody’s had a bad experience, but they’re out of it now, they should just be able to be fine and go on with their life.” Or you know, “The court system will handle things,” and there’s not the recognition that often the family court system has a lack of appropriate training so that they’re functioning under all these social myths that general society is as well.
But because of the power that they wield, they’re actually codifying injustice instead of bringing justice, and that the impact of that is lifelong for women and children in particular. That’s where the failure tends to fall most heavily is on the women and children in the court system. And so, that was really important too, of realizing it’s the injustice… failing to bring justice in a situation like that has much larger social ramifications, and they’re long-term.
Andrea: Mhm. Yeah. Gosh, you know, one of the things that came to my mind when you were sharing that, Rosanne, was just how common it is for people to… you know, we want to believe that the people who are in these positions of power are going to take care of us. Like, “Well, it got to the courts, so I can relax because they know what they’re doing and they understand my situation,” or “They understand my friend’s situation,” or whatever it might be. Or going to a pastor – we find that in the next episode that we’ll talk about here – but even going to a pastor or even some counselors and thinking, “They should know exactly how to help me,” or a doctor, you know. So many different kinds of people who we go to for help, but we don’t recognize their limitations. And sometimes they don’t recognize their limitations.
Rosanne Moore: That’s when they’re most dangerous…
Andrea: Right. It’s so sad.
Rosanne Moore: …is when they don’t recognize their limitations.
Andrea: Right. But Debra is doing some education and wants to do more education of the court system itself. So, if the people involved in the court system could have a better understanding of trauma and those dynamics of coercive control, maybe then they would have what they needed to make those, you know, decisions that they need to make.
Rosanne Moore: Right. And another thing that Debra brought out too that she mentioned in her episode that I thought was really important – because we are looking at various systems – is that healthy parenting involves allowing a child to experience natural consequences of decisions. It’s not about manipulating, controlling, owning the child. You know, so I think a lot of times, wrong views of influence or unhealthy control can get started very early in our families of origin.
I don’t know about you, Andrea, but I know when I’m tired and I’m stressed, I don’t want to take the time with my kids to always engage in healthy ways. Sometimes I’m just like… I can use shame or I can use my own frustration to pressure them to do what I want instead of training them or engaging them in healthy ways. And that’s something that I’ve had to go back and apologize to them many times for, of allowing my frustration with a situation to cause me to lean on them instead of teaching them, kind of discipling them, if you will, mentoring them in a healthy way.
Andrea: Oh my goodness. I mean, when I finished this interview – like the day that I actually recorded the interview with her – I ended up… this was the first time that I gathered with just a few friends after COVID started and everything, and we gathered in my friend’s backyard. And we’re talking and I was just feeling the weight of it and how big of a deal coercive control and understanding what coercive control is and the difference between that and what you just described – which was the natural consequences – how big of a deal that was. I just felt the weight of it so hard and I was just telling my friends, I was like, “You guys, we all have to have a better idea of what coercive control is.” And just like you said, it’s so easy with kids. I mean, you know, you grow up with, “Children should be seen and not heard.” That’s changed a lot over the years, but we’ve been kind of like, “The child should go do what I tell them to do right now without asking.” I heard that a lot from parents who were parenting and feeling like they should be making their child obey without delay.
Rosanne Moore: You know, I was thinking about that today, the whole idea of teaching children to unquestioningly obey instead of relationally obey. It’s a very different paradigm. If you treat the child as an adversary and control as a sum-zero game, then there’s always a winner or loser and you’re not connecting with your child. And it’s dangerous too because it doesn’t teach them how to evaluate what healthy power looks like, what healthy authority looks like. And so it can actually put them in dangerous situations if they’re used to unquestioning obedience.
Andrea: I think that’s a perfect segue into 148.
Rosanne Moore: Yes, because in 148, we had Pastor Jimmy Hinton on here talking about “How to Spot a Child Abuser Hiding in Plain Sight”. And he had the heartbreaking experience of discovering that his own father was a pedophile who had many, many victims, including members of his own family. And so, one of the things that Jimmy emphasized was that when allegations of abuse are brought forward, it is not our job to investigate. It is our job to take those allegations and report them immediately to trained authorities who have been taught how to carry out an investigation appropriately.
I think that too often it’s easy to think of, “Well, the person is innocent until proven guilty.” That’s actually a misquote – it’s presumed innocent until proven guilty – but we’re not the court of law. There are authorities that are trained to carry out investigations like that. And so, it was really valuable to hear Jimmy’s perspective.
Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, you even brought that quote up in Episode 149. I don’t want to go to Episode 149 yet, but when you started to talk about how to support somebody, one of the main things that you said was very similar, which was, “It’s not your place to determine whether or not this person’s accusations are credible.” And a lot of times when people come with accusations of abuse to a friend or family member, that family member thinks, “Well, I need to go check with that person and make sure, you know, ‘Was that what you meant by this?’” And I think it similarly came up with this conversation with Jimmy that that is not our place. And yet that’s how a lot of people feel. A lot of people feel like they are responsible to that other person as well, especially if they have a relationship with them because they know it could tarnish their reputation. They know that there’s a lot at stake, and yet we’re not trained to do that.
Rosanne Moore: And part of it, too, is nobody wants to believe that they’ve been deceived, you know.
Andrea: Oh, absolutely.
Rosanne Moore: And so, I think that’s the other knee-jerk reaction is like, “Oh, if these allegations were true, I would know that about this person. I would have recognized that there was a problem.” And Jimmy’s point was this was the father that he had adored and looked up to and yet, when the allegation was made, he realized that the person coming forward, it cost them a great deal. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose by coming forward. And so he immediately took it to the authorities. I think every parent should… because we all want to have our children be safe.
And one of the things that Jimmy brought out was that a lot of the things that are done that we think are keeping our children safe are actually not highly effective. He gave some really good proactive tips about how to keep our kids safe.
Andrea: He did.
Rosanne Moore: So, every parent, if you didn’t listen to that episode and you have children or grandchildren, definitely check that one out.
Andrea: Or if you teach children…
Rosanne Moore: Right. Work with them in any way, yeah.
Andrea: Yeah. You know, people get trained – teachers and whatnot – they get trained in how to handle abuse accusations or when they suspect abuse, but they don’t get trained in what Jimmy talks about, which is how to spot somebody who might be an abuser.
Rosanne Moore: Right, how to prevent it.
Andrea: How to see them ahead of time so that you can see that, “Oh, this person is exemplifying behaviors, that are consistent with somebody who wants to abuse a child.”
Rosanne Moore: Right. Yeah, because after the abuse is done, I mean, you want to handle it well, but the damage has already been done. You want to prevent it if you can.
Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. And there were so many things about, again, his story, and it was a really compelling conversation as well.
Rosanne Moore: Yeah. So that brings us to 149, and we’ve touched on it a little bit. We did an episode where you talked with me about “How to Support Someone in an Abusive Relationship”, what can be done if you know that somebody is struggling in an abusive relationship? How do you help them in a way that’s truly helpful? So, one of the things we talked about was knowing the limits of your expertise, making sure you get your own ego out of the way so that that’s not clouding your vision. And the other big thing, I think, we talked about was that that being a good listener so that you can empower the other person instead of trying to rush in and be the hero to take their choices away. That’s not something you want to do. You want to empower their choices instead of make the decisions for them.
Andrea: Yeah. You know, Rosanne, I think this is a really good time for me to bring up Lifeline because this idea of trying to support somebody in an abusive relationship… Lifeline – the course that you created – was really created to help people, women in particular, who are in an abusive relationship, but then to help the people that love them to know how to help them best.
And so, you talk about it here in this episode, but then you dive so deep into it in Lifeline in a way that… I just want to say from the perspective of somebody who listened to the entire thing – because I interviewed you for the Lifeline course – from my perspective of somebody who hasn’t been in an abusive relationship but wants to be supportive to other people, I just want to say that going through all of that material is so incredibly eye-opening and heart-opening, I think, too.
And it made me so much more aware of what I could do or what I shouldn’t do to the ends that you were just describing here; like, you know, not taking over and being the hero for that person, but how to empower them to be able to make their own decisions and using even some of the course material that you created in order to do that. I just think… Oh man, it was so good.
Rosanne Moore: Yeah, and I created Lifeline because when I went into the court system, I just thought if I told the truth and presented evidence that I was telling the truth, that I would be believed and I would be taken care of. And to have to deal with navigating the court system, which was a very different experience than what I had imagined… There was not a deep devotion in the court system to uncovering the truth, or to protecting me or my children.
And so, I had to learn how to communicate and what the roles of the various people in the court system were. I was being given all of these decisions that I had to make at a point when I was tremendously traumatized still. And so, trying to think through those decisions and make long-term decisions – things that were going to impact things for me and my kids for long-term – while I was in the middle of all this emotional upheaval was really difficult.
So, the whole reason Lifeline was created was to take away some of that burden, to help women think through those decisions and not just be inundated with them. Because you do, you feel like you’re drowning under this mound of paperwork. And while I found some really good resources – and that’s part of our giveaway, is our resource list – I found some good resources that would help with dealing with the psychological aspects of leaving an abusive relationship. I didn’t find a lot of practical decision making ones, and so that was why that course was really important for me to be able to share with others.
Andrea: And you also have shared all of that information before on a very personal level with many women that you’ve walked through this with, and so it’s not like you just went through it and you just created it. It’s been eight years since your divorce, and you are in a position now where you’ve walked through this situation with many people. And so, I think that’s important for people to know. And as you’re continuing to do advocacy work for laws that are going to be more understanding of trauma, and just bringing awareness to that piece of it…
I guess I want people to know… I want you to know, listener, that if you or someone you know has experienced… maybe you’re in an unhealthy relationship and you’re wondering whether or not this might be coercive control, first of all, you can go to our episodes here that we were talking about – particularly 143 and 145, and then this one, 149. But then also the whole first module of the course is just available for you if you contact us; text the number 44222, text VOILIFELINE. So, again, the number would be that you call or that you send the text to would be 44222, and then VOILIFELINE, and that will give you access to the things that are just readily available for you.
And then we do have a course that continues – because it’s a lot of information – to help somebody through the process. So, if you decide that you would like to continue that process, you can learn more about it there. It’s really highly valuable. Rosanne, thank you so much for all the work and really, the emotional toll that it took. It cost you a lot to put it together, and I’m grateful that you did.
Rosanne Moore: Definitely left it all on the court working on that, yeah. But you know, as you said, I’ve done this with enough women, and we wanted something that was going to be really broader than my own personal experience that would help women make decisions even if their circumstances were very different from mine. And so, we tried to cover a broad range of things.
And yeah, whether, if the listener is herself in an abusive situation or maybe is concerned about a friend, check out those resources because there’s a whole lot there for you to be able to just evaluate. And then if you do decide to get the course as well, to purchase the rest of it, don’t plan to do it all at once. There’s a lot of pieces, and you can do it over time. It’s something that you can unfold as you’re able to do. So, yeah, we just want to provide that for you so that you can take things apart piece by piece over time instead of just drowning in paperwork.
Andrea: Okay, so moving right along to narcissists.
Rosanne Moore: That’s a good segue. Oh yeah, 150, we talked about “When Narcissism Comes to Your Organization”. And Dr. Chuck DeGroat had just written a book about narcissism specifically in church organizations. A couple of things I thought that were real standouts from that interview… and I loved listening to you, Andrea, and to that conversation that you had. You asked some really, really good questions, and I think he really enjoyed being able to engage as deeply as he did. So, we’re going to touch on a few things, but there’s a lot in that.
Andrea: It was packed.
Rosanne Moore: It was. So, if you didn’t hear it, go back and listen to it. It’s a really good one. A couple things that he pointed out, though, is that character matters more than giftedness, charisma, or accomplishments. That it’s really easy sometimes to let somebody’s charm or their giftedness or their apparent accomplishments make you give them a pass for bad behavior, but over the long haul, that’s going to be more damaging to your organization. Character does make a difference. And that was one of the things that kind of stood out to me in what he was sharing. Another was that there is healthy confidence.
We go back to the original question we talked about, “What is healthy influence versus unhealthy influence?” Healthy confidence is going to empower us to serve others with humility and curiosity, but on the other end of the spectrum, narcissism is fueled by manipulation and self-serving behavior. So, just as there’s good and bad influence, there’s healthy confidence and then there’s self-obsession. So that was a really good episode.
Andrea: Yeah. I think that was a conversation I’d been waiting to have for probably two years since I really started looking into narcissism. I’d been wanting to talk to somebody about this, and the opportunity to talk to Dr. DeGroat was just a real honor. And he shared so much information; in particular, also, about not just the individual and how this is hard for us to recognize, but then also why it’s so hard for a community, an organization to admit that that’s been a problem. And maybe once a person leaves… they leave, but then it leaves behind still a system that is used to the way that they function. So, they continue to function in ways that are unhealthy.
And so, I think one of the things that I really wanted to make sure we covered – and he, you know, certainly is all about this – which is just once the person leaves you still need to work on healing. And whether that’d be an individual or in a system, I mean, there’s still a lot of work to be done to look at one’s self, to reflect, to say, “Is this really how we wanna be? Is this really healthy?” It just goes back to that same issue that we keep bringing up, “Let’s look at this. Is this healthy? Is it not? Are we willing to admit it when we’re not and when we’re doing things that are contributing to something that’s unhealthy?” It was incredibly important, and I’m really glad that we did that.
Rosanne Moore: Yeah, it was very good. And our next one – kind of still along those lines – of what does institutional health and leadership look like. Episode 151 was with Dr. Neil Schnoor; “Institutional Health and Leadership in Difficult Times”, what does that look like? One of the things that he brought out was that in order to have healthy checks and balances in an organization, there have to be ways to report problems or potential problems without fear of reprisal. So, you can’t just say, “Oh, we’re gonna have a great, healthy organization,” and not have any system where, when things get off track, it can be talked about without there being any punishment for the whistleblower.
Andrea: Yeah, that was a really key point.
Rosanne Moore: Yes, yes. And then he talked about taking the time to listen and really understand the variety of needs in departments, and the perspective of those in roles that are different from your own, and to value the different areas of expertise that others bring. And I thought all of that was really, really valuable.
Andrea: Yeah, and Dr. Schnoor, he is the chief of staff to the president at California State University, Long Beach. He helps make sure things get done and that they get done well. And I actually had him for a professor when I was in college doing a music education degree, but he talked a lot about leadership. He was always about leadership. So, I followed him through the years. He was actually on the podcast a couple of years ago, actually… well, three years ago, I think, and we talked a lot about this dynamic of power.
And so the perspective that he brings is one of, you know, no matter how high up you are in the organization, no matter how much power you kind of have, it is vital that you listen, that you care, that you really take on the perspective of other people and appreciate what they have to bring. So, there’s a humbleness there that if it’s not there, you’re going to miss out on a lot of things that could lead to unhealthy things.
Rosanne Moore: And I think one of the things that really caught my attention about that episode was the point he made that it’s easy if somebody else is not good at what you’re good at to think less of them and if they’re struggling in an area that it’s kind of your expertise. Whereas, if you were trying to do their expertise, you would be struggling just as much you know. We can’t all be good at everything, and that somebody is not less… just the importance of valuing what each person brings to the team. I thought that was a really good point that he made.
And that kind of leads into our next one which is looking at how things are interconnected. Dr. Jason Kanz talked about “Being a Voice for Wholeness and Human Flourishing” in Episode 152. He talked about how it is important to recognize our interconnectedness and interdependence. If we don’t recognize the reality of that, then we don’t really recognize how important it is for us to be healthy ourselves because our lack of health will impact the system as a whole.
He also talked about how our lack of wholeness often involves wearing masks instead of being authentic and causing us to show up differently with different people, instead of being consistent with all of our relationships. And that fragmentation can cause us to harm others without even realizing that we’re doing that, that our internal disconnection destroys curiosity and how that curiosity is vital for connection.
Andrea: Yeah. He really helped us, I think, to kind of bring it back to ourselves instead of, you know… We had an opportunity to look at abuse and what those dynamics look like, what’s coercive control, and how do we handle that in a community or in an organization, and then in Jason’s episode, he brought it back to, “But what about you? How healthy are you?” Because if we’re not healthy, if we’re really struggling with something and we’re needy in some way, or we’re self-serving and we feel like we have to have power or whatever it might be, we’re going to end up affecting everybody else around us with that negativity.
Rosanne Moore: Or as you’ve often pointed out, you know, when people are angry, often what’s the sad underneath the anger? What’s the thing that they’re disconnected from in themselves that they’re really grieving but that comes out of them as anger? So not being self-aware about our fear or about our sadness or things like that can actually cause us to behave in ways that are going to break connection with other people.
Andrea: Mhm. So, yeah, thank you so much for summarizing for us, Rosanne. You know, I really hope that everybody will listen to all of these. I know that in the past, Rosanne, we’ve been kind of trying to find our voice, the things that we really care about as a company and for the podcast – you know, what exactly are we trying to accomplish and what are we trying to share – and this gets to the heart of it. Like, this is foundational to what we hope to accomplish in the world, which is to help people really connect their gifts with the need in the world and have that influence, but have it in a healthy way.
I mean, really, one of the problems that we see is that people are exerting this kind of influence. If you’re using coercive control to get somebody to do something, you might get them to comply with you. You might get them to do what you tell them to do, but then when they walk out the door, they may not ever care about it again. They may nod when you’re in the room and say “Sure, I’ll do that.” And then when you walk out, they decide not to. So, the kind of control, the kind of emotional investment that you get out of others when you’re trying to influence in this way is not what you actually want.
Rosanne Moore: It’s so true. And in the weeks ahead, we have some new offerings that we want to share to talk about what we’re doing as a business and the help that we can give our listeners. One of the big things is, “How do you get healthy buy-in?” That’s one of the things that you address a lot, Andrea. And we’ve talked some too about just why you’re passionate about this, how you started looking at this, and why influence matters, and what does it look like to have healthy influence. And I know our listeners are going to benefit from hearing more about why this has been something percolating in you for a long time, and really, what helps you be a good guide for others in learning how to build teams that are working collaboratively.
Andrea: Mhm. So, I’m excited. I’m excited about the direction that we’re headed. I’m excited that we have this foundation kind of beneath us as we move forward because there’s so much here that I think anybody that wants to take on leadership, that you care about other people and you want to help them. I mean, that’s essentially what it comes down to. You want to help people or you have a mission of some kind, then these are the kinds of things that we want to be able to help you address so that you know about them so that you know how to handle them.
So, thank you for this summary, Rosanne. It’s been fun to kind of go back and think through these episodes and just the significant contribution they make, I think, to any of us that are wanting to make a difference in the world. So, again, if you’re interested in learning more about Lifeline and perhaps even getting those resources that are there and available to somebody who is in an abusive relationship, please text VOILIFELINE to 44222 and visit us at our website voiceofinfluence.net. We are excited to continue with you into the future.
Your voice matters, and you can make it matter more!
