Recently, my children came home from school and they were telling me about a girl who was “bossy” and it was clearly a negative thing to them.
This made me think about how children, especially ones who’re sensitive to the feedback of others, struggle to know when it’s appropriate to assert their voice and when they should hold back.
In this episode, I speak about how to find that balance and read an excerpt from my book, Unfrozen: Stop Holding Back and Release the Real You, of a story from my own life that perfectly represents this struggle.
Kim Gravel is a veteran tv host, entrepreneur, public speaker, and life coach who’s appeared on The Steve Harvey Show and was regularly featured on SiriusXM’s Dirty Pop with Lance Bass. Through her own hit show, Kim of Queens, she was able to entertain audiences with her quick wit and vivacious storytelling. In just two years, Kim was able to build her business from nothing to a $60 million success.
In this episode, Kim shares the core purpose of her message, how her voice was always as strong and confident as it is today, the value of communication, why helping others with self-expression is a large part of what Kim does in her work, why you need to quit preparing and start doing, the importance of being passionate about what you do, and so much more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.
Oh my goodness, you guys, today is a treat! We have Kim Gravel, who is a veteran TV host, entrepreneur, public speaker, and life coach. She was booked on The Steve Harvey Show and was regularly featured on SiriusXM Radio Show, Dirty Pop with Lance Bass.
And through her own hit show “Kim of Queens,” Kim was able to entertain audiences with her quick wit and vivacious storytelling. Indeed, I know, and you’re going to experience it. Her Passion for people was made obvious onscreen as her unexpected depth and genuine heart helped her clients find confidence and self-love.
For her newest venture, Kim has partnered with retail giant QVC to launch the Belle by Kim Gravel apparel line and Belle Beauty Cosmetic line. And in just two years, Kim was able to build her business from nothing to a $60 million success.
Andrea: Kim, it is so good to have you with us here on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Kim Gravel: Oh, so exciting. I love it. I love Voice of influence. What a fantastic title, right? Because we all have an influence, so, you know, and we all have a voice so people just don’t get that. So I love the title of this podcast.
Andrea: Awesome. Thank you. I love it too. It felt like it was like this, I don’t know, handed to me or something, you know.
Kim Gravel: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
Andrea: OK, so Kim, I know that you’re really driven by purpose and mission and your message, so could you share with us kind of what you’re all about, I guess. What is the purpose and message, the core of your message?
Kim Gravel: You know, I think my particular message has been what it’s always been. It has evolved, it’s changed, it has had many faces, it’s taken many turns, and manifested in many different ways. But for me, it’s about knowing the ‘why you’re here’ and ‘what are you going to do about it.’ You know what I’m saying?
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: I think some get it at a very early age, most people never get it, and some of us are trying to get it on a daily basis and some of us, it’s just a journey. But when you can figure out the why you are here then you can get onto what are you going to do about it because everybody has a purpose. And that’s such a self-help guru type, you know, answer but it’s just the truth.
I’m a straight shooter, so I’ll just tell you straight up, you weren’t here, you weren’t put on the earth just to take up space, there’s a reason. And you can call it whatever you want to, super spiritual, super new ages, super…whatever they’re labeling it today. But that’s just the heart of it and I think everybody is always searching for that. People say, you know, “Uhh, people are searching for love. People are searching for self-worth.” No, people are searching for ‘why am I here?’
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: Yeah. All the other stuff that’s just add-ons, you know, what I’m saying?
Andrea: Uh-hmm.
Kim Gravel: And so for me, helping people see that or helping people even understand that that is why they’re here is what the message is. It’s so difficult but so simple at the same time because for me, I found out what that was. I was doing that. You’re always doing your purpose. You just never can define it. You know what, I’m saying? It’s everything you never thought you always wanted. That’s what purpose is, you know.
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: It’s everything; you never thought of, that you always wanted. And so, you know, that to me is everything and that’s the ‘why’ behind everything I do.
Andrea: OK, so usually I find that that when people are driven by such a strong, you know, purpose like that, it’s personal. So is there anything that, you know, any stories that really connect you personally to why you care so much about that?
Kim Gravel: Yeah, because when I was young I just remember, you know, because back then, back in the day, because now I could say I’m middle age, which I can’t believe I’m saying that out loud but it’s the truth. But back in the day when I was a kid, and like my children who were 9 and 11, when I was sitting in my bedroom, we didn’t have video games and iPhones in distractions.
So I would sit for hours on end and line my stuffed animals up on my bed and either sing to them or talk to them or communicate with them because, you know, girlfriend didn’t have a lot of friends at the time. My parents moved a lot. And so for me, I had to entertain myself. I didn’t have a sibling yet. I just remember those days and I knew that I was meant for something at a very young age.
I grew up in the church. I grew up with very strong, encouraging parents. But I would stop and take the time as a young kid and listen to that still small voice that would speak to me, the inner me and say “There’s something out there for you, there’s something out there.” I wasn’t distracted. You know, we didn’t have the distractions back then.
So for me, I can remember a specific time, I was riding in my mom’s brown Malibu car and back then we don’t have to wear seat belts and I would chew on the back seats. I know I had an oral thing, “Don’t talk to me about that right now.” Well, I would sit there and I would daydream and dream. And I would tell my mom about all these dreams and my mom either she wasn’t listening or, you know, she just let me talk either way and I would just say it.
And I remember one time coming home, I think it was from, we called it Richway, I think it’s now Target. But back in the days, it was called Richway, it was a department store. And I was eating a slushy my mom had got me, and I said to myself and I said it loud, I said “Mom, I’m made to sing or talk to people.” And I remember my mom going, “Well that is true, you can run your mouth.” Only my mom could do it and that hit me and it stuck with me now. That has taken on so many different forms, so many different ways. But I truly believe, if you could trace back to when you were young, your purpose will be there.
See, a lot of people are trying to get over their past or they’re trying to…a lot of people have gone through hard times and struggles, but all of that is locked into that purpose. There’s a ‘why’ you went through that and there was a reason behind it. But we get hung up on what happened to us instead of what can happen through us. For me, I clearly remember the moment. I remember that period of my life where I knew and then the real work and frustration and hail began.
Andrea: OK. I was hoping you were going to say that because, oh my goodness, because I really felt…I remember feeling some of those similar things and especially we share a passion for both speaking and singing. I remember, I actually watched the song that you sing, you sang Phantom of the Opera.
Kim Gravel: Oh God, help me.
Andrea: And you’re in the Miss Georgia competition, oh my gosh, it was great.
Kim Gravel: Well, the only reason I would demonstrate, you know, I wanted to have scholarship money and I want to be heard.
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: I love your “Voice of Influence.” I wanted my voice to be heard.
Andrea: Yes, yes!
Kim Gravel: You know what I’m saying?
Andrea: Yeah, I do.
Kim Gravel: That’s everybody. That’s everybody on the planet, you know, so for me, that was just a way for my voice to be heard.
Andrea: Did you ever struggle with the fact that, I mean, you have a really strong voice. At least at this point, you’re very confident. You’re not afraid to say it. You know, like you said, you’re a straight shooter. Was that ever something that you held back?
Kim Gravel: Sure.
Andrea: OK, why?
Kim Gravel: As a woman, can you imagine as a southern blonde or at that point I was probably live brunette. God fearing Christian Bible belt big mouth girl, are you freaking kidding me? I would go to church where you’re supposed to be I loved and cared for. And let me tell you something, I’m a strong believer. I still go to church. I love God, everything. But those early years, I was told, you know, be seen, not heard. I was told you just get married and have kids. And I thought, “My Lord, why would God give me this voice? Give me this passion; give me this preaching quality…” I’m saying that in air quotes as I’m talking to you “…and not be able to use it?”
Andrea: Oh I do.
Kim Gravel: I went through all of that. You know what I’m saying?
Andrea: Yes!
Kim Gravel: I went through all of that. I’m still going through that to some degree. There’s sometimes I still have to say, “You know, I’m pretty much not going to do that,” and slide that piece of paper and say, “We’re not going to do that deal. I’m better than that.” But I still go through them. I’m like, “I hope if I slide the paper over and they say no and I’m rejected.” And then, you know, especially as women, and I’m sorry I’m a woman, I’m pro woman. I think women run the world. I think we are the backbone, the neck bone, the tailbone, you know, leg bone, you know, we’d make it happen and I live with three men so I can say that confidently.
But yeah, the doubt, the insecurity, the “I’m not enough” or “I’m just a girl” or “You’re not smart.” Oh God, if I could write down how many times someone has assumed that I was unintelligent based on whatever, fill in the blank. And you know what; let me take this right now. I know somebody as dumb as hell, now I must say dumb as hell. I almost say it when they think I am. When someone meets me and it takes them a month, two months, six months, a year to figure out I’m intelligent then they’re stupid, not me. You know what I’m saying? So that’s what I want to say to people.
A lot of people are having all this expectations, all of this in the box thinking about what they should be and what they shouldn’t be. I see the school system with my children, it’s such a frustrating thing and they’re the ones that don’t have it together. And so for me, yes, the struggle has been long. I still struggle. I laid in bed yesterday. I’ve had a little bit of a cold and watched Charmed on Netflix from season one, I’m up to season three now, just because I had this deal just going so wrong and it’s clearly a lack of communication, and I can’t figure out how to make these people understand.
And so I lay in bed all day wanting to get a chocolate cake, but I’m really working on trying to lose weight. But I just lay in bed and watched Charmed and thought “This is never gonna happen. These people are never gonna get it. This is never gonna happen.” And that still small voice said, “Keep communicating,” because that is the biggest problem we are facing, millennials, us, and everybody is lack of communication and connection.
Andrea: Well, do you think that part of that is fear?
Kim Gravel: Oh, sure! Oh girl, you could go ahead and speak on that. Anything based out of fear, being fear motivated, you’re in trouble. Fear insights are the complete opposite. Now, I will say this, I get excited talking about this, doubt, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I love this line in the song by YouTube it says, I have just enough low self-esteem to get me where I need to go.
So doubt and a little bit of self-awareness in that way, that’s good. Fear, no. OK, because really fear like…my mother has spiritual…“What if it snows while we’re on the plane.” “We can’t do about it anyway, honey.” You know, God’s got it. If it’s time, it’s time. If it’s not, it’s not. And she’s not even a fearful person, but just that things we can’t control is what we really fear. The self-doubt and the little bit of insecurities that we have about ourselves that we can’t control and that’s not necessarily always a bad thing. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: Fear is a myth. It’s not real. Bad things we fear never come pass anyway.
Andrea: Right? So much of it is in our own heads and so much of it is a misconception too of what other people are actually thinking.
Kim Gravel: Absolutely, or miscommunication. Again, everything is about communication. Your confidence, like my relationship with God is communication. My relationship with my husband is communication. My relationship with my business partners is communication. I mean bad communication could set a whole lifetime off. So that’s why I think what we do, girl, is so powerful.
Andrea: OK, so part of what I think we’re both doing, but I’m really wanting to hear more about what you’re doing to do this is helping people express themselves.
Kim Gravel: Uh-hmm.
Andrea: So, self-expression and I know that Kim of Queens, I mean a lot of that was self-expression.
Kim Gravel: Sure!
Andrea: Helping pageant girls be able to kind of figure out who they are and what they’re doing with all of the different pieces of the pageant. So tell me more about why self-expression and you helping people with self-expression is so important to you.
Kim Gravel: OK, because what we teach at schools, what we teach at colleges, what we teach in a lot of times these self-help books or these YouTube videos, what we teach has great self-expression, right?
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: Express yourself, be you, do you boo? If I’ve heard that one time, I heard it a thousand and I totally agree with that. But then we tell them how to do that based on laws, rules, or regulations. I love it. This little teacher told me this and she said, “You know, this is not about the theory, _____,” because they go to a private Christian school, have its own ideas but he can’t do this, this, this, this, and this.
OK, well that’s an oxymoron. Those two things cannot exist on the same plane, OK? So what we’re doing is we’re saying to people, “Do you boo?” But then we are censoring it, covering it up, denying it saying “You don’t fit here, you’re a weirdo.” “You don’t belong.” And now we have this massive backlash and everybody’s trying to belong to somebody somewhere and you really don’t belong and that is a good thing.
So for me, I will never forget a conversation I had with a very, very powerful agent in New York and I was embarking on the whole QVC thing. And I didn’t want to work with this man because I knew 10 years from now this isn’t going in well because I’m either go kill him or he go kill me. So I remember him saying to me, he said to me and this is where it came to blows, he said to me, “Let me ask you something, Kim, are you able to speak in anything other than southern colloquialisms?” Oh my God. So there he goes. OK, so he took an arrow, took a shotgun and just blew through my heart of everything that makes me who I am, my self-expression, right?
Andrea: Yeah, yeah.
Kim Gravel: So we love you to be cute, funny, and say no, _____ on a fire hydrant; we love you to do all that crap, but you’re not good enough to hang with me because you do that. So that’s what we do and I knew at that point he’s small. He’s never going to get anything other than what he gets. He’s not going to recognize who I am other than “She is a size 14 with a big butt, big hair, and a big accent.” He can’t get beyond that.
And that’s how we’re killing self-expression. We’re not supposed to be alike. We’re not supposed to be anything like anybody else. We shouldn’t even _____ or compare ourselves to anybody else because that kills creativity. So to me, self-expression, that’s everything. That’s your DNA. That’s your fingerprint. That’s the one thing no one can take from you.
Andrea: OK, so how do you look at or how do you approach helping people find their voice?
Kim Gravel: You know, it’s different in different ways. I always say this every time I’m on a show or something. I said there’s nobody that can bring out the best in you better than me. They might can do it as good as me but not better. And that is because when I look at an individual, and this has taken a lot of practice, a lot of prayers; I don’t see their race, their color, their weight, their height, their financial status, what they can give me, or what I can give them, I just look at them as like really…I pray to God, “Let me see people the way you see people,” and when I pray that, be careful what you pray for because he answered it.
And so I see that role potential, role purpose, I see too much good sometimes. Sometimes I have to be like “Run, Forrest, run” when I see some people that don’t, but it’s because I’ve trained myself to do that. So when I look at someone, I don’t speak to their insecurity, to their power. I can see all the bullcrap and say, “God, this person is naturally good at, fill in the blank.” And sometimes it’s just, “Oh my gosh, have you ever thought of…and whatever, fill in the blank.” It’s not about really me; it’s just about being able to notice something and being able to communicate that. That’s it.
Andrea: It’s like opening up doors for people. I liken it to, you know, somebody…it’s almost like people are inside of their own jail cells and there’s no lock and all I’m doing is coming over and open up the doors so they can walk out like, “Hey, did you know that this is open? Look at all the possibilities.”
Kim Gravel: You know, a lot of times, I _____ things like this and your podcast and I need a pick me up. I need a _____. I need a good workout and that helps, but the magic is not in us. It’s in us. We already have it in us.
Andrea: OK, so I know that experiencing it though, like actually taking the steps actually doing the thing is such a huge piece of it. Even in the things that you’re working on now, do you have any examples of…or stories that you want to share of how you help people take those steps?
Kim Gravel: Sure! Yeah, let me get you a personal story because once you take steps, it’s easier to take more steps. People that take chances and step out on faith take more chances and take more chances and step out on faith more and more because they’ve built up their faith muscle, OK?
Andrea: Yeah.
Kim Gravel: So for me now to jump off a cliff and do something crazy and out of the box is a lot easier for me now. It’s not as risky. It’s not as scary because I’ve done it. But I remember the first time I did it, OK. I wanted to ask, I said, “OK, I had this little singing group girls, we’re traveling around church to church.
Andrea: Love it!
Kim Gravel: Community center to community center or _____. We were producing our own CDs, we’re writing our own music, middle-aged women. I had two at home, little infants and I said to myself, I’ll never forget it, I said, “I’m gonna take this to the next level.” OK, let’s talk about stay-at-home mom, you know, sagging boobs, you know, your hind end and everything. So you take about three women like that out there trying to make it in the music world where everything is grabbing your crotch and butt naked.
So here we go and I said, “I’m gonna take this to the next level.” I said “I wanted to have a reality show.” Girl, I know nothing about nothing. I know nothing, OK.
Andrea: Except that you’re brilliant, right?
Kim Gravel: Well…
Andrea: You just knew you got it.
Kim Gravel: I knew I had something to say. I just knew I had something to say. I didn’t know who wanted to listen, but I remember doing a little video in my girlfriend’s basement for this little TV show that ended up being Kim of Queens, by the way. I said, “I’m going to take it to another…” I remember sending it out to all these producers.
Long story short, we got the show, you know, two years later. People don’t know that the _____ takes forever _____ and this producer; I met with this producer in Hollywood. Again, air quotes I’m doing right here. And I remember feeling like I was the dumbest idiot of what the heck have I got myself into, scariest thing. I wanted to quit because I thought they were so smart and they were telling me, “You gotta do this, you gotta do this, and you gotta do this.”
And I will never forget on set one day, I looked at this guy and then someone will tell you something. I don’t know where it came from but I knew it was wrong, I said, “I’m not gonna sit here and fight with these little girls and fight with these moms and fight with you. You can either do the show the way you wanna do it and get somebody else or get the heck out of my building.” Girl, I don’t even know where that came from.
I was scared to death to even say it but I knew if I didn’t take that step up and get this dude straight, my career will never happen. This is like what, 39. I’m not talking like I was 20, almost a 40-year-old woman sitting here letting this dude just tell me what the heck I am and who I am. So that moment, you’ve got to take that first step. So you’ve got in total fear in total, “Oh my gosh, if I piss this guy off, he’ll never hire me again.” But you have to know yourself and know your worth and know that you’re worthy and step out and be who you are whether they like it or not.
When you do that that’s when your when your confidence will rise. It will get easier to take those jumps. It will get easier to invest and bet on yourself, you know. I mean, some people, it’s doing a podcast. Some people, it’s going back to the school. I mean, fill in the blank, whatever that thing is for you, that is holding you back and you know what it is because if you listen to this podcast, you know exactly what I’m talking about. There’s that one thing that you say, “If I don’t do this, it’s over.”
And let me tell you something, you get a lot of chances in this life, take one for the love of God. Take one.
Andrea: I’m listening to the people who are saying though, but what if this, this, this, or this happens, but this, this, and this are on my way?
Kim Gravel:OK, well, you can’t live your life on what ifs. You’re not going to get married, what if you get divorced? You’re not going to have a baby, what if the baby dies during childbirth? What if you’re not going to…you know, you can’t what if your life you, you just can’t. At some point you have to do something or you’re going to be just reading books and make again vision boards the rest of your life. OK, here’s an example. I hear more people saying, I’m making vision boards. Well, my vision board, I haven’t had a chance to make it. I’ve been so busy since January.
Andrea: I love that.
Kim Gravel: OK, quit preparing and start doing because I’ll tell you this, once you take a step and you do like when I told that joke, this _____, either you get on board or don’t. That’s when the show popped. That’s when we got second season, and now this guy’s a good friend. He texts me and says, “Oh my God, I wish I could work with you again, blah, blah.” That’s never going to happen but “Oh my God, we should work for you.” You know, you have to do something and you have to believe in yourself enough to do it or nobody’s going to believe in you. Quit working your vision board, honey, and reading your books. Get up there and check _____, do something.
Andrea: I love it. I love that. Do you think that that part of part of what we do when we…OK, here. I think one of the things that we’re afraid of is, you know, like we’re going to polarize people, like some people won’t like me. So talk to me about that like polarizing people. Surely not everybody is into Kim Gravel, you know like…
Kim Gravel: No!
Andrea: Who is Kim Gravel’s audience and why do why do you speak to them and not everybody else?
Kim Gravel: OK, so look, I know everybody doesn’t like me. I always say this, if you don’t like me, that’s fine. I still love you. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who likes you. The only person that matter who likes you is you. And this is the thing, I like me. It’s been a long journey and I don’t like the way I look all the time. I don’t like the way what I say all the time. I don’t like the way I act all the time, but when it comes down to a little bit in my heart and soul, I do like me and I hope my children like me. But if they don’t, which they don’t right now because, you know, they’re supposed to when they get older. That’s fine because I still love them.
You got to please you, and that sounds narcissistic but it all goes back to being worthy. Being worthy and you believing that you’re worthy has nothing really to do with you, and I hate talking super spiritual but I know…
Andrea: No, it’s totally fine here.
Kim Gravel: It’s just what I know. I don’t know psychology. This is what I know. I know that I am fearfully and wonderfully made and I’m an individual and I know that there’s nobody else like me. So if I’m here, I know that he loves me, accepts me, likes me, and I’m worthy. And so when you know that you’re worthy and you feel that self-worth coming from something bigger than you, it has nothing to do with people’s opinions or even your own, or even your mom’s and dad’s or even your husband’s or whatever then it’s so much easier to not care. I don’t say not care because I think that’s a lie because I do care what people think, but I don’t stay there. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Well, it could be that too that you’re driven by such a purpose by that purpose. You’re secure in the love. You’re driven by the purpose, and so you’re willing to sacrifice the fact that people might not like you. What do you think?
Kim Gravel: I love that because when you’re passionate about something, nobody can tell you anything. I remember when I started selling on QVC and the tops or the jeans or whatever that I would sell that I was passionate about that would sell out. And the tops I was not crazy about, I couldn’t sit there and lie and be unauthentic. I could, I could go, “Oh, this is a great top.” And I would say that but everybody knew. They didn’t know why they did know. So they didn’t believe me, they didn’t say, “Oh my gosh, she’s lying.” You can just feel that, you know, what I’m saying?
Andrea: I do.
Kim Gravel: So when I’m passionate about something, you can’t tell me nothing, I’m a bulldog. I’m a bulldozer. And I’ve seen that in so many people, like in politics, people get so freaking passionate about politics and I do not know why it is this crooked industry on the planet. But they get so passionate about it but that’s why they’re willing to fight to the end for it. You got to figure out what you’re passionate about and do it. If you’re not, it’ll be stale. It won’t be authentic. It won’t be true. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Yeah, I mean it brings us right back to where we began with your why, why you are here and what you’re going to do about it. That’s essentially it.
Kim Gravel: That’s everything. And I just didn’t know if your only reason here is to really figure that people think is supposed to get married and have children, although that’s fantastic and I love my children and that’s my biggest job and responsibility right now. And they’re always going to be my children but that’s just for a season, OK? I asked people, “What do you call to do? “I meant to be a wife.” No, no, no, no, nope. “I meant to be a mom.”
Andrea: It’s our role.
Kim Gravel: No, that’s not it, sorry. And they get mad at me. Some people say “Kim, you’re just crazy.” I’m like “You’re not here to be a mom. That’s not your job. That’s not why you’re put here. You get to do that as a woman, what a blessing and what an absolute huge responsibility and it’s your most important responsibility while they’re in those formative years but your kids are going to be gone in a short amount of time. What you’re gonna do with the rest of your life and the best thing you can do for your children is to have purpose so that they can recognize.” They didn’t even know they were doing it. They didn’t even know they were doing it back in the day. I think it’s even harder now to find your purpose than it was back when you just had to survive, you know.
Andrea: Sure!
Kim Gravel: And when our parents were coming up, they just work, you know. Now, there’s so much information and I’d say information, not knowledge. There’s so much coming that people are so confused, depressed, and it’s just because they’re sitting there watching on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. Other people leaving out their purposes instead of them getting about theirs, so bottom line is I should’ve been a preacher because that’s all I’ve done so far.
Andrea: Oh, no, no, no. I love it. No, this is so fun. I mean you are a preacher. I mean in a sense, you know?
Kim Gravel: Yeah, yeah. I miss that. I told you I miss my calling. I was told when I was a southern Baptist girl, you can’t preach, you’d be quiet. I should’ve never done that, biggest mistake.
Andrea: Yeah. I think for me, hearing that and feeling that sense of there’s no opportunity here in the church for your voice. I don’t know if anybody wants to hear that from me but yeah, that definitely motivated me to move towards business so…
Kim Gravel: Yeah and let me tell you something. Let me tell you all these women out here listening to the entrepreneurs that don’t think they had business to send them, you do. You sound certainly do and there’s plenty of room out there for all of us and we’re supposed to have a voice in business. The marketplace is dying for women. I cannot tell you how many business meetings I’ve set and they’re like, “Well, we want to sell to Susie, The Soccer Mom.”
And I got one now and I can’t really get into it. One is like “We wanna to sell to Liz and Elizabeth. “We wanna to sell to the mom and the daughter.” We’re always the people that they want to get our money. So you better get about getting your business that sell to each other because money in this world gives you a lot of seats at the table and that’s what women need. Entrepreneurship and money and business gets you tons of seats at the table.
Andrea: It changes the game.
Kim Gravel: It changes the game, right. And that’s what we should be teaching our young girls in college is how to…because we the workers, “I’m sorry, we don’t want to get it done.” So I’d love to see women take that part of who they are and put it in more of an entrepreneurial vein and get more seats at the table that way.
Andrea: Wow! This has been a really great, fun conversation, Kim, and inspiring. Is there any one thing that you would like to leave with the listener, like some sort of a call to action or thought that you want to leave with them?
Kim Gravel: Yeah, I do. My motto is if no one’s going to encourage you, encourage yourself. Take responsibility for your own feelings, thoughts, actions, and spiritual wellbeing, your soul. Because I will say this, the drought is over. The days of being less bad and depressed and fatigued and in debt and all of that is over. It’s time for us to stand up and it’s time for you to stand up and take your rightful place in this thing called life, because we need you and I say that all the time, “I need you.” You know what I’m saying?
There’s no one person who has it all together. We all have something together that we can all collectively share together. So we need you!
Andrea: Alright, Kim, where should people look for Kim Gravel?
Kim Gravel: Oh, just go to kimgravel.com, you’ll find something there.
Andrea: You’ll find a lot there.
Kim Gravel: You’ll find something there for you and if not, you’ve been blessed. I’m telling you what’s you’re doing, girl, with this podcast, do it. Do it, I love it! This is the future. And keep communicating because we need it.
Andrea: Yeah, thank you! Well, thank you for your voice of influence in the world.
Kim Gravel: Well, my pleasure, and I love you guys and thanks for having me, girl.
Whether you’re working with people one-on-one, an executive working with a team, or you’re a parent who wants to the best come out of your kids, you’ve been tasked the challenging and rewarding work of helping others find their voice.
In this episode, I’m talking about what it looks like to help others release their voice. Some topics discussed are how my son’s cub scout troop was the perfect reminder of how amazing it feels to help someone find and use their voice, why so much of how people express themselves has to do with what’s inside their mind, why it’s important to give immediate positive feedback when someone begins to share their voice, how doing so allows you to challenge them later, and more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey, it’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.
Today, I’m going to help you become a better coach, whether you are somebody who is working with people one-on-one, maybe you’re an executive that wants to help your team do better to bring out their voice and that sort of thing. Maybe your parents who are looking at your kids going “I want to see the best come out of them.”
If you are someone who is in that position where you know that have the opportunity, the ability, the responsibility even to draw out someone else’s voice to help them to become more of who they are, to help them step into who they are to use their voice and make a difference in who they are then you have a special, special place in my heart.
I totally know the amazing opportunity that you have, both for yourself and for them, because it is transformational work to be able to encourage others and to see them change, to be a guide that comes alongside someone, to encourage them, and to bring them out and challenge them and help them reach the next level. It’s so exciting.
But one of the biggest, biggest challenges that people have is that they are very intimidated by others. We’re very, very often…I mean, everybody I think, but definitely when you’re in a position, when you’re specifically are in a position and there’s somebody who looks up to you, who is looking to you to help them, looking to you as a leader or as a guide, most likely they’re wanting your approval. They’re wanting your nod and they’re wanting to know that you like them.
And so in a sense, you kind of just buy the fact that you’re in that position, you’re kind of intimidating, which makes it difficult for someone to come in and feel comfortable with you and to really be able to warm up to you and that sort of thing. So today, what we’re going to talk about is when we talk about what it looks like to help others really release that voice.
OK, and as usual, I have a kids’ story for you. I told this kids’ story. This is totally part of who I am and part of my brand are all these kids stories because I have kids and I think that when we bring it down to that level of just really simple level of children, I think everybody can relate because we were all kids at one time and many of us have children or you know children or you love children. And so I love to use these examples in order to make it so that everybody can kind of relate.
So we’re going to go to the kid story now. Recently, I have started working with my son’s Cub Scout troop because they’re going because they’re going to be singing the national anthem at a college basketball game. And they’re so excited; I mean some of them are excited. I think the older ones are having a harder time probably getting excited, but the younger ones, oh they’re so excited about this opportunity because they love to sing.
So the first thing that I do is I have them gather around me while I’m sitting down at the piano. Now, if you don’t already notice about me, I was a music teacher and I taught music lessons and voice lessons. So when I’m talking about this, this is the background that I’m coming from and I make all kinds of connections between how people use their voices in a singing sense and how they use them in a more figurative way or that voice of influence kind of way.
So I have these boys standing around me and we’re doing these scales and the more that they sing, they more excited they get. And then we go and we started singing the actual anthem and we do some call backs and echoing and things like these so that they can really learn it. And by the time we’re done, it was so fun. I had such a blast and one of the little boys looked at me and goes “I wanna be a music teacher when I grow up.” And I _____ “Oh yes, steal my heart, take it now.” I love it. I love it when they get so excited.
And that whole experience just reminded me of a couple of things that I want to share with you today. So number one, it is an amazing experience to be able to help people find their voice, to help them find joy in expressing themselves and help them find joy in singing. Number two, singing and sharing your voice in the world, a voice of influence or singing, either one of them. It’s 10 percent talent and probably 15 percent practice and the rest of it is all in the head.
Now, that is totally my own statistics. They’re actually not statistics, this is my estimation. But this is after years and years and years of working with people and helping them and what I’m saying is that so much of what people or how they express themselves has to do with what’s going on inside of their minds. You see this is a music teacher, when kids are bout in 4th grade, they start to really pull back until 4th grade, kindergarten. Earlier, I worked with little, little kids and going on up to about 3rd grade, they are very enthusiastic. They’re not afraid to sing. They enjoy it. They smile and they get into it. It’s so much fun.
And then about in 4th grade, they still kind of do it but they’re starting to pull back and you see a consistent pull back on that voice throughout the rest of their adult lives up until about the age of the late 30s maybe. At late 30s, at least women, I’ve seen this from women more than men, but at least in women in late 30s, they start to care less about what other people think about them and so they start to share more. They start to sing out more.
And then they hit 40 and there are some sort of like _____ in people and it’s amazing to see how much more comfortable they are with just who they are and they start to really share. They start to really sing. They start to really let their voice go.
So that desire to impress people, I think really start to hit around 4th grade, that desire to not just impress people as a younger child who want to impress people as well. But there’s more hesitation because the older you get, the more you realize that other people don’t necessarily adore me like I thought they did and the world is a lot more harsh that I thought it was. And some people don’t like my voice, some people aren’t going to just smile at when I sing, when I share it.
And so, so much of what goes on in the other person or maybe in yourself has to do with this head game. It’s a head game. What is going on inside of the other person that you’re working with? OK, let me give you a couple of tips based on both. I’m going use the example of working with these Cub Scouts little kids, but it absolutely applies to the way that I work with adults as well in just helping them communicate and find their voice of influence.
So when I have these little boys stand around, I have them stand around me at the piano and I’m playing these little scales and the very first thing that I do as soon as they open up their mouths and they started singing is they get immediate feedback from me. They know right away that I am so proud of them for opening up and letting sound out.
It doesn’t have to be perfect, because when someone first shares their voice, when someone first comes up with an idea, oftentimes it’s not the best one. Oftentimes, it’s a far cry from the best thing that you want from them, but if you affirm their voice immediately then they had a sense of OK, so even if that wasn’t perfect, at least it’s wanted. They want to hear more from me.
So what I do, when I’m working with these boys here, I was going up and down the scale and I was singing with them a little and they would call back and we work together and then I hear it and I go “Oh, let’s just listen to that sound. I wanna hear more of it,” and that sort of thing.
And in encouraging them as they saw the joy on my face because they were producing that joy by singing, when they could see that they had the power to make me delighted, to delight in them then that give them more confidence to sing out louder when I wanted them to sing out louder. It also give me more room and buffer to be able to correct them when I needed to.
So if they did something that’s wasn’t quite right, I could say “Oops, let’s hold on a second, it wasn’t quite as good as you did it last time,” or I could say “This little line right here, let’s take a look at this more closely and pick it apart a little bit because _____, isn’t it?” And of course these are little boys and at the same time, guys, people appreciate it when you appreciate them.
If you really want to help somebody else, if you want to help them by coaching them and that sort of thing then one of the biggest gifts that you can give them is encouragement. And I’m not saying that to ever, you know, give a challenge because I talked about this before but I think people need to be safe, celebrated, and challenged. They need to feel safe, they need to feel celebrated and then you need to bring in the challenge.
And I absolutely believe this, if you provide that atmosphere where they feel like their voice is wanted and that you are for them, you are here to help them, this is about them then when you are ready to celebrate something about them, you can do that, you can say “Wow, that was actually really great.” And then when you need to bring in that challenge, you can bring it in powerfully.
And they know, “Look, this person is my coach, my mentor, my parent, my manager, they care about me. They are for me. They are so for me that they are putting so much energy into this. They believe in me. They believe that what I have is special and that that’s worthwhile to hear even if I need to keep working to refine that, I’m willing to put myself under their tutelage in order to get better because I know that it’s not about shame, it’s not about feeling bad about myself, it’s about revving it up and feeling like it matters and that I can do something about it. And because they care about me, I have the confidence to keep going even when I get tired.
So these boys, I tell you what for 20 minutes, we were singing like crazy, and like I said, I have them around me in the piano. I’m constantly giving this feedback and then we turnaround and I look at them in the eyes. They mirror you. You guys, people mirror you and of course you’re going to really see it in a young child when you smile at them, they smile back at you. When you frown at them, they feel crummy and so they frown back at you. But it’s not unlike when you’re adult, when you’re an adult and you’re doing this.
When you’re encouraging people, they might not smile back at you right away. Because, I mean think about high schoolers, when I was a high school music teacher, it would be so funny because, you know, I would share my enthusiasm for them and the whole group. And with the whole group, they would just sort of like they were still very stoic a lot of times, especially when I first started, they didn’t know me and feel comfortable with me yet. But when I started to work one-on-one with people, when I could work one-on-one and I could hear them then I could give them immediate feedback and they started to really believe in themselves and they started to smile.
It’s the same thing when I’m working with folks one-on-one and they’re talking about how they’re dealing with a problem, how they’re working on a situation, or something that they’re struggling with. It is absolutely important. I absolutely believe that that is so important for me to start out with an affirmation of some kind.
I love how you are working towards this with this person, even if I totally disagree with the way that they’re approaching it, I can come back to that but I need to start with “What can I affirm in them first?” What can be celebrated?” Because they need to know that I care for them, I care about them and I’m for them then when I come back with a “You know what, this is really an important what you’re doing here.” And they recognize that in themselves and they see that in themselves and they start to realize “Yeah, this is important. I am important. My voice here really does matter.”
But then we get to the point of saying “Alright, so let’s take a look at this a little more closely.” “Why do you think that?” Or “How do you know that?” We need to take a look at though then we get to bring in the challenge piece then people don’t want to just be safe and celebrated. They don’t want to feel of all sense of affirmation from you. They want to know that you are here to help make them better.
So you’re not only here to be for them, with them, to celebrate them, to make them feel comfortable, or to help them find their voice. No, no, you are also as a coach, you are also here to challenge them, to bring in that extra effort, that extra beat of advice or help them think through things so that they can improve and they can feel more confident in who they are and who they are becoming as a person, whatever they are, or whatever they’re trying to become.
So much of the coaching relationship is about this head game. It’s about voice. It’s about the head game of voice. It’s about what’s going on inside of people so that they can feel comfortable enough to actually sing, to actually let their voice be heard.
I find that this is through with myself. When I start to question my abilities, when I start to become self critical or I let a criticism sink in and then I think “Oh my gosh, I do stink.” “This doesn’t work.” “I’m not going a good job,” whatever it might be. When I start to do that, if I do that before I’m about to step on stage or if I do that before I’m about to approach a group of people with an offering of some kind to help them in some way, I’m not able to offer as freely as when I want to feel like I actually have something that’s of value to offer.
So in order to help other people find that voice of influence in themselves, we need to help them connect with the fact that they are valuable, that they are worthy, and that they have something important to share. And so once you get to that point then you come in with some additional ideas about how to improve that will help them really find and release their voice. In helping them do that, you will find your Voice of Influence.
Do your employees feel respected?
Business leaders know respect is important but there’s often confusion as to what that respect looks like and what it really means.
In this episode, I cover the main points of Kristie Rogers’ article; including the distinction between “owed respect” and “earned respect”, how a recent experience with one of my sons is the perfect example of these two types of respect, what needs to be considered when deciding how to balance the two types of respect in an organization, and more!
Mentioned in this episode:
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey, it’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.
Lately, I’ve been working on a project. It’s a little training or an offering that I am putting together that would help companies or organizations be able to get really clear on their values, their mission, their vision, and their purpose in order to be able to share that with the rest of the company so that they can help people connect their purpose to the purpose of the company. So a feeling like it matters “What I do really matters here.”
And in the process of working through this and working on this and testing it out with people, I’m also putting together a talk to use at conferences. So in the process, I’m reading some articles. And I came across this one from Harvard Business Review. It is by Kristie Rogers who’s out of Marquette University, and I really appreciated what she had to say about respect.
So today, we’re going to a look out what she does say about respect just like a couple of things that she says and discuss what that looks like or what it means for us as people who are trying to help others connect their purpose to the company, help others be able to feel like we matter and that their voice matters because this is something that we talk about a lot here, you voice matters, but you can make it matter more.
This is sort of the tagline that we’ve been working with the last year or so and this idea that your voice does matter. It matters inherently. You’re a human being that matters.
But on the other side, you can still make it matter more in a different sense. And I talked about this a number of times. You can do things that make your voice have more influence. So there’s an inherent quality but then there’s also this quality that has to do with your performance and what we do, what we say, and how that actually impacts our influence.
So what Kristie Rogers says in this article is that that there is kind of a consensus that people know, business leaders know that respect is important. They kind of know that. We’ve been talking about it quite a while, but maybe there’s confusion around this idea of what it really, really means and what it looks like. So she makes a distinction between owed respect and earned respect.
Let me read to you her definition. This is from the article Do Your Employees Feel Respected?Show Workers that they’re valued and your business will flourish. This is from Harvard Business Review, July-August 2018. And owed respect as she defines it is accorded equally to all members of a work group or an organization. So this is for everybody. It meets the universal need to feel included. It signaled by stability in an atmosphere suggesting that every member of the group is inherently valuable.
So, owed respect is really this general overall feeling and this general overall consensus that everybody matters. It’s this idea that your voice matters, inherently you are valuable. But earned respect recognizes individual employees who display valued quality or behaviors. It distinguishes employees who had exceeded expectations and particularly in knowledge work setting affirms that each employee has unique strengths and talents.
Earned respect meets the need to be valued for doing good work. So earned respect has to do with performance. I think that is so important. I love this distinction. I think it’s so important because you have to have a sense of owed respect. Everybody like that people matter and if they don’t feel like they matter at all, they’re not valuable, that they don’t _____ value then how are they supposed to feel like what they do matters?
Or maybe they get kind of stuck on this cycle of trying to climb the corporate ladder in a sense or be more and more and more successful because they’d be more valuable if they’re more successful. So we don’t want people to find their inherent value in success. That is something that is just there that everybody is valuable as a human being. But when there is a distinction between that and earned respect that means that the people can truly outperform somebody else.
I know that one of the things that gets confusing in schools for example is you know, do we give everybody the same grade? Do we kind of make grades a deal an issue at all? Or do we reward for things like, you know, your grades or your test scores, or do we need to just make it about attendance and the only things that you get rewarded are your behavior, you know, being quiet in class and being there.
Well, students just as much as any other human being needs to know that they are valuable and that being there is important. And at the same time, they also need to be rewarded for hard work or their abilities of what they do, with what they have and outperforming themselves essentially but it could be outperforming others as well.
So it becomes tricky though, right? It becomes tricky as a teacher, as an educator, as somebody who’s trying to decide what to recognize and what not to recognize because you don’t want to have people feeling bad and then giving up but on the other hand, you don’t want people feeling like, “Gosh, it doesn’t really matter what I do with my abilities. It doesn’t matter what I do with them so I’m just gonna give up as well.”
There is a need for both owed and earned respect. It kind of also made me think of a story with my son. So we went out to eat as a family and it was actually…let me think about this before telling you but this particular meal, we went out to eat, it was a celebration because one of our children did really well on a test and one of our children did really well with their grades, and we wanted to celebrate that. This was a moment of earned respect.
There are many times that we just do things with them and for them because we love them, because they are our children and they don’t have to do anything to earn that love and so we’ll rotate them out. We’ll do special something with them just because they’re our kids, but this was a particular celebration.
So we wanted them to know that we were recognizing, that we recognized how hard they’d worked and that it’s important and it’s good to do that. And so this was a moment of earned respect. So we decided; we were playing games at our table while watching a football game and eating and that sort of thing. That was really fun.
And then our son realized that he had forgotten something in the car. So we gave him the keys. He’s 9 years old, we gave him the keys and he walked out. We kind of looked at each other hoping he doesn’t get hit you know. We warned him before he left, you know, “Make sure you’re watching for the cars,” because he kind of tends to be oblivious to his surroundings sometimes. He looks down and walks instead of looking up. So we were a little concerned about that, you know, sending him out there by himself.
But pretty soon we saw him coming back in the door. We were across the whole entire restaurant. We see him walking in the door. He opens the door and he’s kind of looking down and he opens the next door and he sees an older gentleman that is kind of struggling to walk, and I was like “You guys, what’s he’s gonna do?” I actually said that. I wondered, you know, “Will he really do something? Is he just going to walk right by or is he gonna notice?” And you know what he did, he actually opened the door for this gentlemen and I was like “Oh, yes! I’m so glad that he noticed.”
We were sitting there and just kind of like “Oh this is awesome. Good for him.” He can’t see us. He doesn’t notice us. And then I said “Do you think he’ll open the second door?” I really wasn’t sure, and sure enough he did, he opened the second door. And my mom heart just beat out of my chest. I was so happy that he did that. It just elevated the level of respect that I had for him in that moment.
And so he came back to the seat or the table with us and we told him, we’re like “Grant, we are so proud of you.” Like him doing a good job on a test, but he didn’t actually worked too hard at was one thing. But Grant actually paying attention to another human being and giving him owed respect, opening that door for him.
He didn’t notice the gentleman _____ so it’s not like he earned their respect in the sense that he had done something for Grant, instead he gave him owed respect because he’s a human being and he could see that he needed help, he opened the door. And this made me so proud of him, and in that sense, Grant, earned more respect from me.
When it comes to how we apply this to our work environment or to our organizations, we need to, and these are some of the things that Kristie said in her article but also some things that some of my thoughts as well kind of make _____, we really need to provide an atmosphere where everybody knows that they matter, that they are valued and their contribution does matter.
So when I’m doing a workshop or I am helping a company come up with their values, we make sure to do things and to integrate ideas that will help bring out the voice of the people that are working there, not just the executives but also those who are kind of on the frontline and doing work with customers and things like these. So we capture their voice. We give them an opportunity to speak then we go and have conversation with the executives then we get more clear from their perspective.
You know, we kind of hear both perspectives and what kind of the executives kind of do some of that real work of determining which things we’re going to really highlight in terms of values or initiatives that they’re wanting to move forward and then we go back again to the people and we say “This is based on what you said and what the executive said and do you have any ideas of how we could implement this?”
So in each instance, we’re making sure that these folks feel like, and that truly are respected, that they are giving a voice. But at the same time, a voice doesn’t necessarily carry as much weight or influence as another voice because some people are in a position where their voice, their influence is greater simply because of their job position and they earned that position. And so they do have greater influence over the whole entire process; however, that doesn’t negate the fact that everybody has influence. Everybody has a voice in a sense and all of those voices do matter.
But we do have to acknowledge both and that when somebody does put the extra effort that they should be rewarded. So it is a balance. It is a balance of certainly understanding what the people need in terms of respect and owed respect as well as rewards or celebration or the opportunity to take new opportunities to explore new options or to have more influence.
Another important point that Miss Rogers makes is that when you’re trying to decide what the balance should be of owed and earned respect in your organization, there are some things that you should take into consideration. If you are trying to produce a collaborative result perhaps it has to do with innovation or coming to consensus on something then owed respect should be given more weight.
However, if you’re in a situation where there does need to be some competition or it’s more of an individual situation where individual effort and success needs to be measured, well maybe then earned respect needs to carry a little bit more weight.
But it is certainly true that every single place you go, owed respect is absolutely important. It’s imperative. If you want to have a voice of influence, if you want to make your voice matter more then you will give voice to others. That is how you make your voice matter more.
So respect all and give even more respect or celebration to those who have gone above and beyond and make your voice matter more!
Leena Patel is the CEO of Global Impact Systems, founder of Sandbox2boardroom.com, and a leading expert on helping executive teams worldwide drive innovation and develop a culture of collaboration and inclusion. She draws from two decades of experience as a business owner to design and execute innovation initiatives that capitalize on new business opportunities and secure a strategic market position.
In this episode, Leena shares why leaders need to focus on helping their teams become better problem solvers, how her grandfather’s personal relationship with Gandhi had an impact on who she is today, the logic her Gamulation system that helps participants perform better in high-pressure situations, her personal mission to 4x the number of women CEO’s in Fortune 500 companies, and so much more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.
Today, I have with me, Leena Patel, who is the CEO of Global Impact Systems, founder of Sandbox2Boardroom.com, and a leading expert on helping executive teams worldwide drive innovation and develop a culture of collaboration and inclusion. Very, very hot and important topics right now.
Leena draws from two decades of experience as a woman-owned business owner to design and execute on innovation initiatives that capitalize on new business opportunities and secure strategic market position.
Now, part of what Leena does that is really fascinating is Gamulation, which I’m excited to hear a little bit about that. Hopefully that’ll come up in our conversation, Leena. But Leena’s voice, this is so fun. She is a powerful person and she’s got this amazing drive, I don’t know, like can really get to the point and can see through clutter. I can tell she can just see through stuff and get right to what needs to be done or said.
Andrea: And so I’m excited to have you on the podcast with us today, Leena.
Leena Patel: I’m excited to be here, Andrea. You know, you must be psychic, because I _____ you know, we haven’t had this conversation and I didn’t even know that you felt that way about me. But one of my gifts that I’ve been told and I’ve known and felt it for decades now is this sort of ability to just get through the clutter, like be able to see exactly what somebody needs to take them to where they need to get to. And it’s just this ability to connect dots.
I actually want share and talk about that today, but crazy psychic ability that you have there. It’s amazing.
Andrea: Well, that’s awesome because, you know, I am kind of known for voice. That’s sort of my thing, like I look for that in people and so I can tell that. I just know that about you. So I’m excited to have this conversation. This will be fun.
So, Leena, what would you say is kind of the core message that really drives you in your business? I mean in your life?
Leena Patel: So, I’ve been on a journey that has evolved over the decades and the place I am right now is…let me kind of just sort of share what’s going on in the world right now. The core message is to help organizations understand that leaders or the teams that they have…we really need to focus on up skilling everyone to become better problem solvers so that we can connect dots, do what I do, which is kind of help people get through the clutter and help them to do that, to be able to connect dots between different ideas, different roles, and different industries.
And the way that we do that is helping them unleash creativity in themselves and in others and teaching them to innovate but in a very, very strategic way. I think that’s the way that businesses are going to win in the future.
And why, I mean why is that driving me? In order to answer that part of the question; I grew up being mentored by my grandfather. I’m not sure if you knew this about me, but his mentor was Gandhi. And the message that I got growing up from my grandfather was…
Andrea: Excuse me, when you say his mentor was Gandhi, can you just briefly explain what you mean by that? Because some of us would consider like authors or activists to be mentors without actually having relationships, so what do you mean by that?
Leena Patel: So he met Gandhi at the age of 16. He actually delivered a speech, a talk at his school, and his life changed. Everything changed for him in that moment and he knew that this is somebody he wanted to follow and he wanted to learn from. So they actually had a live, in person mentor-mentee relationship. He was with him for 16 years. He stayed in his house.
Andrea: Wow!
Leena Patel: He was part of India’s move towards creating independence. There’s a whole sort of back story between his relationships. He was a spiritual activist. He was a political activist and that was his mission and his purpose in life. He was in his 30’s at some point. Basically, the British government kind of forced him to leave India. And so he moved to Kenya from there, which is where he met my grandmother and they got married and that’s kind of how I came into the world.
But those 16 years of his life were a huge part of who he was, what he stood for, how he showed up in the world, and consequently how he raised us; my mother, her brothers, and sisters. And how we were raised because we grew up very close, you know, spending holidays, weekends, summers, and vacations together.
And sort of from the age of four, I had a very close relationship. Two of my uncles committed suicide when I was 4 and 5 years old respectively. The reason for that was they actually felt like they didn’t have a voice. They wanted something in their life that they feel they couldn’t speak up for. And because they didn’t know how to speak up, they didn’t know how to exercise their power and their voice, they took their own lives and that’s a really extreme thing to happen.
But it really kind of anchored into my mind at the age of four without being able to articulate it the way that I can now that I didn’t ever want to do that. I don’t want to ever live my life that way, and I didn’t want other people to live their life in that way.
So that became the beginning of my relationship with my grandfather and him mentoring me because he helped me to understand these incidents and other incidents in my life in the context of, you know, sort of the bigger picture in what’s going on in the world. And so leading change, driving change was a big…it’s just sort of felt like I grew up, it’s part of my DNA, you know. So his lessons for me was to drive change where change is needed, to not be afraid to challenge the status quo, to do it respectfully, do it with kindness and understanding of where people are and meet people where they’re at. But you and I, individually, and collectively _____ and so that’s been a driver for me in my life.
Whatever I’ve done, and just to sort of give you a little bit of a kind of back story of my professional background, I’ve got background in the arts and sports and entertainment. My first career was as a professional dancer. That was over 20 years ago.
Andrea: Which is fascinating though. It’s fascinating.
Leena Patel: But there’s a reason I’m sharing this with you because I moved then from the world of high performance into sports. I started coaching athletes. I worked with some Olympic level athletes. I worked and trained with the artists of Cirque du Soleil for a number of years. I worked with Celine Dion and personally worked with her for many years, over 15 years and her management team and her organization and then move from that world into the world of business.
I started training businesses on how they could bring this elite performance, high performance skill set into their business to drive performance within their team players. And so it’s been this evolution and I share all of this to kind of say that all of these experiences that we have in different areas of our life have led me to this moment of what I’m creating today.
And the realization for me at the time, you know, my whole life would be from sports, to arts, and to business. I’d start learning about the digital marketing and I’ve learned about tax and accounting. And I’d go in and learn about, you know, sustainability in the environment.
As I started evolving in business, I created Gamulation. This is my innovation in instructional design because I realized that people in business weren’t learning the skills they needed to learn. So I came up with a new and more fun and playful way for them to integrate information so that they could up skill themselves quickly.
So the business was going through all this sort of evolution as new skills were being added as I was innovating to adapt to the marketplace. And I was driving myself crazy, thinking, “Who does this? Nobody does this.” Our entire life was taught to zone in and niche and focus on one industry and one specialty, and these are the people that are rewarded.
Here I am learning all these different skills; one, because these opportunities are just coming to me; but two, because I’m genuinely interested in how people do things in different ways. And I went to a mentor and he said “You know, don’t worry, you’ll figure it out. You’ll figure out how everything maps together.”
The turning point for me was realizing that all of this information wasn’t a limitation. It wasn’t a shortfall. It was my secret sauce. And it’s the thing that leaders today need more than ever. They’re solving their problems right now in isolation. Yeah, innovation is a hot topic right now in companies because they’re realizing that they have to adapt to new technology, artificial intelligence, things like that.
And so it’s top of mind for like 85 percent of CEO’s innovation right now but then they’re going ahead and bucketing things. They’re now looking at gender and diversity and figuring out how to put more women in leadership positions and then they’re looking at their sales and marketing teams and figuring out how to help them perform better. And they’re looking at big data and they’re bucketing all these different initiatives in their company and then sort of wondering why they’re not being successful.
So one of the things that I realized is that if I can actually teach them how to connect the dots between these different initiatives, I can actually draw from the 16 plus industries that I’ve now worked in over the last 20 years and help them to see _____ if they can implement what somebody’s doing over here in the tech space, you know, what somebody is doing in healthcare and in manufacturing, for example.
Now they’re innovating. That’s one level. So we teach them actually how to connect the dots in a very systematic way to help them get exponential results.
Andrea: Wow, I love that. It’s interesting because I can understand the frustration with the idea of having to narrow down not being able to use all the curiosity that’s inside of you. And yet, there is a way to use that curiosity and it kind of reminds me of Adam Grant’s book, Originals, and how people who are truly original, innovative and all that, that they really are able to draw from a lot of different sources and background and experience in order to bring all that to the problem that’s in hand.
And it sounds like that’s exactly what you’re doing and that’s what you’re teaching companies to do. I love that! So what are some of the ways that you do that? Could you maybe just share with us about Gamulation, this really cool training, or I’m not exactly sure what it is. I kind of have an idea but I want you to tell us a little bit about it.
Leena Patel: Sure! I’ll give you two examples. I’ll talk about Gamulation since you asked. So we use that as a tool for actually helping leaders and teams understand or learn the skill they need to do. So one of the ways that we want, we want people to actually learn faster. We want them to retain information and we want them to go away and implement it.
Traditional ways of learning have not really served people in doing that. It just sort of giving people a 10-step process, teaching somebody through a presentation whether sort of passively receiving that information. So Gamulation was really a combination of two different ideas, the gaming world which is so popular today and you know, women, men in their 20s, 30s, 40s utilize that as a pastime to activate and engage their brain.
So the gaming world that has really taken off and millennials, particularly, really connect with this. I want to bring that environment of fun and learning through games and through play, but bringing it into a business environment so that it was highly relevant. It was highly structured and it helps people to actually retain information so that they could go in and implement it and actually get results. They could actually get a return on their investment from investing in trainings.
So Gamulation is bringing together in the world of games, the fun and the playfulness that’s _____ and the world of simulation which has been around for a 100 years. And simulations are known and utilized in healthcare and in the military for a long time because they understand that people learn best when you put them into an environment that resembles the environment they’re going to experience. They’re going to be challenged in.
So the military are going to train in a sort of war zone environment so that when they’re on a battlefield they know immediately how they’re going to respond under pressure and they’re trained to do that. And I wanted to train people in business in the same way to put them into environments where their skills were really tested and challenged so that they didn’t just sort of know on a surface level, “Here are the skills to be a great negotiator. Here are the skills to be a great innovator and here are the skills to be a great leader.”
But putting them into environments where their leadership skills would be challenged, where their negotiations skills would be challenged, and where they really have to negotiate. But they have to do it and they’re dealing now with sort of international diplomacy and they’re dealing with contracts, and they’re dealing with time pressure. And putting all this pressure into them to help them see how they’re going to show up when the crap hits the fan, really.
Because it’s easy to be performing at a high level when things are going great, but we’re really going to be challenged and we’re going to make the worst decisions. And I learned this, you know, this is how athletes trained. This is how I trained, and this is how I trained other athletes is if you’re going to win a marathon, it’s great to just be like, “Hey, let’s have you running at a particular pace.” Or you know, “These are the things that you need to be doing to train.”
But on training day, like on the day of the Olympics, on the day when you’re on stage, on a day when you’ve got that really big important meeting going on where the cameras are on you, people are going to be there, there are going to be interruptions, there are going to be audience, all of a sudden your adrenaline is lifted and loosening and you start making crazy mistakes.
So I would train people to operate under high pressure by throwing all these stimulus, distractions, and interruptions at them during the training process so that they learn how to focus even amidst all the craziness and so they wouldn’t be making those crazy mistakes. And because they were training at that level, when they were put into those high pressure negotiation environments or they had to make difficult decisions or teams are falling apart, business deals are falling apart, they didn’t crumble under the pressure. So they made sound business decisions that ended up saving their business, you know, sometimes millions of dollars of revenue depending on the organization.
Andrea: Wow, that’s really interesting! And then you said that you were going to talk about something else too. What else is on your mind?
Leena Patel: So yeah, that’s how I’ve used Gamulation as a tool to train leaders and teams. And it’s simply a tool, a mechanism for helping them get to their goal faster. You’d asked what kind of example of how I’m sort of helping companies do this. One of the things that’s really been huge for our business this year is helping leaders not only sort of innovate in terms of what they need to develop in terms of new product ideas or their processes internally, but as I particularly focused on the entertainment sector, the tech sector and those sort of big, big areas that I focus on.
And there’s a big conversation, I’m not sure if you’re aware of right now, but diversity is the big conversation that’s happening in these spaces where they’re really wanting to focus and bring more women into leadership. There’s a recent initiative by the ex-governor of California where there has to be at least one woman on the board and three by 2021, I think it is. And so that companies and businesses are sort of scrambling to put women in leadership positions to “meet that quota.”
So the gap is that these women are not necessarily trained for leadership positions. They haven’t been given a skill set and so what we kind of have them do is help them to really align. We go into companies and say, “Instead of focusing on your innovation initiative in one bucket and then focus on growing women in leadership and growing your diversity team in another bucket, let’s bring them together. Let’s actually help your women, your potential like women that you’re grooming to step into leadership positions. Let’s really help them to understand your company’s long term goals and utilize and leverage their innate skills and abilities that they have as women, that they have coming from these diverse backgrounds to actually forward your company’s goals.”
So now they’re actually adding to the bottom line revenue of the company. Now, we’re also going and teaching these women not only like use your skills to help the company innovate and drive revenue, but we also are going to teach you actually how do you position it. Because women and men think quite differently as we teach them actually to how they make the business case for their ideas so that they’re speaking the language that men understand, right?
So now, they’re setting themselves up for success because they’re helping the businessmen. They’re setting themselves up and positioning themselves for leadership skills and leadership positions. They’re learning how to ask for the money that just they want and not that they’re owed. I mean, they’re not just saying, “Hey, you know, what, let’s promote more women because it’s the right thing to do.”
So we’re moving beyond kind of tapping into people’s moral consciousness and saying, “Look, this is not only the right thing to do, this is helping us, this is helping you _____.
Andrea: The strategic thing.
Leena Patel: Strategic. It’s really strategic. So women are getting promoted. They’re getting the money that they’re due, the respect that they’re due. They were setting the business up for success. It becomes a win for business, a win for the women and win for the cause, and so that’s an idea.
This is one example of how it really strongly bringing together two areas. You know, bringing together the tech space, bringing together innovation which is needed in every industry right now in order to really be prepared for the future, and then bringing together this initiative to drive women in leadership and uniting it together so that it becomes a win, win, win.
Andrea: Uh it’s fantastic. Yeah, I was noticing that with some women. I spoke at a conference recently with women and we were talking about portfolio building and building business case, just not exactly, but similar to what you’re talking about.
When I was doing some research around that before the talk, I kept hearing from other people that were in executive positions that women don’t come to the table to ask for more money as often as men do or they don’t ask for as much more money in their salaries as men do. That’s just generally speaking of course.
But you know things like this that you’re talking about that I think across industries, women need this kind of training. They need to know how to bring all those things together and think strategically and be able to communicate in that strategic way, yet bring all their empathy and ability to connect to the table. It’s so huge right now. I just think that’s a fantastic thing for you to be doing with companies.
Leena Patel: Yeah. Really, for me, it’s so exciting because I’m speaking literally like a couple of times a month. I’ve been speaking at women’s conferences where I’ve been going into companies and sort of helping them to actually introduce this idea to them and actually how we can implement it within their company.
And I’m talking to these women and it’s amazing while these companies have women’s initiatives and women’s groups and employee resource groups within the company. The very fact that they’re looking at their initiative separately and there’s not this sort of alignment and communication between the different business units and all the way sort of down from executive leadership, all the way down the company is massively hurting them.
I actually looked into this and I found that like the research and the data shows that literally just by making this one shift, they get their goals. I think it was like 38 percent faster, like just because of this alignment and just by bringing two business units together, like sales and marketing. Just by aligning people, their revenue jumps up 20 percent. That’s one shift they need to make.
And so for me, it’s so exciting to go and talk to these women and really listen to what it is that they need. You know, their self confidence has been really burned for a lot of women just being in that working environment. So helping them build that up by teaching them that the natural skills that they have, like building great networks, building relationships, this ability to problem solve, or multitask; when they apply that strategically to the company’s goals and how to do that and put it together in a business case that really make sense for the company, makes sense for them, it shifts them in such a huge way.
So it’s super exciting for me to see that transformation. My personal goal, my personal vision right now is to see more women in leadership right now in the Fortune 500 companies. There are 25 CEO that are women and I want to get that to a 100, like that’s my personal goal and my mission by 2025 and that’s a pretty huge, pretty huge endeavor.
But to tap into those, those Fortune 500 companies and help them to actually not just make that number that women are in leadership, make it like, “Hey, I’m hitting my quota,” but no, this is the right thing to do because now we’re truly leveraging the value that they bring and we’re utilizing it to open up new market spaces and drive revenue to the company.
And by the way, people are feeling great because they’re being heard and acknowledged in the workplace and what a magical thing that you can make money. And you know, you can serve your bottom line and your people are happier for it and you’re doing some good in the world at the same time.
Andrea: Leena, can I just ask you a really blunt question? I’m going to forewarn you. I should’ve forewarned you but I am, what makes you think that you have the ability to get to 100 CEOs by 2025? I want you to be honest because I’m excited to hear your answer.
Leena Patel: So it’s 25 now. There are 25 female CEOs in the Fortune 500 right now, and I want that number to be a 100. That means it’s got to like _____ in the next seven years. So I’m speaking to a number of senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies right now. Actually, there are about four companies, if not five. I’ve got two calls scheduled next week in the Fortune 20, in the top 20.
So I’m going out and we’ll be like making it my mission to talk to and make connections with the influencers because, you know, those companies like when they initiate these changes, it becomes a ripple effect. And the other companies, the medium sized companies and the small businesses start to follow over time. But they’re looking to these big companies, the influencers as kind of leaders and sort of paving the way.
So my decision was, I’m just going to go straight to the top. I want to work with the people that are out there, driving change. They’ve got incredible products and services, they’re offering to the world, and they want to be that _____ in the next 5 to 10 years.
The world is changing so quickly right now that they need to be on top of it. They need to be on top of it in terms of how they’re innovating, how they’re connecting with their customers, the customer service that they’re offering, and the way they’re treating their people. And they need to consider all of this and sort of put this on the table and then be strategic in putting a plan together so that they’re heading, they’re checking all these boxes.
Some of them are doing a great job, but a lot of them, the great companies right now that are doing so well are really struggling.They make great products, but they’re really struggling, for example, right now to support their women. They’re really struggling with understanding how do we work and drive this initiative forward without affecting their bottom line revenue.
And they haven’t cracked the code and part of it is because they’ve been in the tech space for so long. They’ve been in one mindset, which is what we’ve been talking about today and earlier. So kind of going and saying, “Hey look, I’ve got this other perspective. I’ve got this experience of being able to like draw knowledge from other industries and I can help you connect the dots so that now all your initiatives are aligned and you’re moving, your ship is moving in one direction and your people are behind you.”
So while I don’t see it as an easy task and, you know, for one minute I think I’m arrogant not to think I singlehandedly would be able to do this by myself. I think it’s going to take a lot of people jumping on board with this idea and kind of recognizing it.
Our firm, personally, right now is really focused on reaching out to these companies and helping them to understand and we’re getting interest and movement and traction. So I’m really excited to see how this is going to sort of start to cascade over the next 12 months. And, sorry, just what kind of vision is to bring other people onboard and help them to sort of say “This is what I’m doing, like if you want to help and you want to jump on board with this, let’s do this together because this is something the world needs.”
Andrea: Well, it sounds like to me, it sounds like number one, you have confidence because you have lots of positive successful experiences. They’ve built up overtime. You’ve worked with tons of different kinds of people. So number one, you have confidence. And number two, you have purpose. This thing that’s driving you and this is just me kind of my observation of what you’re talking about and why I think that you are going to make this happen, but also because you have this purpose.
You are so driven because you believe in the reason why it’s important and you care about it. It’s something that you want to see happens and you care about voice, you care about, you know, all these things that have kind of happened to you in your life and this huge purpose is like backing you up to.
So it feels to me like you’re unstoppable. It feels like you’re going to make it happen and not because you just think you’re all that, but because you care and you know it’s the right thing. You know it’s going to be good for them and so you’re going after it. And I just wanted to point that out because I love it and I think that it’s going to happen, yeah.
Leena Patel: Thank you. I appreciate that. I know it’s a long journey and it’s taking action every day continuously reaching out, even when people don’t see the value in it or don’t see that it’s top of mind for them today, but continuously pointing out “Here’s where the world’s heading and you’re either going to jump onboard today and start strategically planning for the future or you’re going to be back peddling and catching up in five years time because your competitors have taken the leap.”
And you know, it’s so interesting for me that the people, the companies, specifically companies within the Fortune 50 that I’m talking to right now, the ones that are responding and wanting to initiate this conversation and learn more, are the ones that are actually already doing amazing things in this space and they want to push the needle. And it’s fascinating to me that the people that are already doing great or like the ones like “How can I be better, what can I do differently?”
And the ones that are kind of struggling in this space but they’ve got a multibillion dollar company, they’ve got something that’s really awesome and everyone is using and utilizing their product, they somehow think that because I’ve got this awesome product, they actually don’t need to innovate on their people. They don’t need to change their culture. They don’t need to, you know, kind of focus on taking care of things and they’re missing this whole thing.
And I’m like, “Wow, this is amazing that they’re operating in this way.” And so my kind of goal is to just educate and maybe just to open the window and kind of what could be possible for them if they look at their business from a different perspective. And if they see that a lot of these companies, some of them are goals driven and they understand that and a lot of them aren’t.
So, you know, part of being strategic is helping them to understand that this is actually going to have a positive bottom line effect. But my end goal is to drive them towards understanding that it can be a win win. They can build a great company. They’re building a company and future proofing that company by thinking in this way.
But they’re also, eventually, using their influence and their power to create some good. And creating that good in their workplace and the environment and the culture they’re building, creating some good in the community that they can now kind of impact, creating some good in a world by solving bigger problems in the world. So that’s sort of my, you know, sneaky end goal is to sort of help them to use their power and influence for the better. And I think that, you know, it kind of becomes a win win for everyone.
Andrea: Yeah. What would you like the listener to take home with them today? Of all the things that we were talking about so many important nuggets, but what’s something that you would want to leave with the listener today?
Leena Patel: The number one takeaway, I want people to get as that now is the time to cultivate creativity amidst this chaos. Now is the time to take action, to take risks, to up skill yourself, to up skill your people. Gandhi said we need not wait to see what others do. So taking those risks, even though it feels challenging, you know, to lead the way in your industry and lead the way for the future. Take that action.
Andrea: Hmm OK, so this has been great. This has been fun to hear and inspiring for sure. Leena, how can people connect with you, and is there anything in particular that that you would like to point them towards?
Leena Patel: Sure, our company website is Sandbox2Boardrom.com and that’s Sandbox 2, the number two boardroom.com. And you can definitely connect with me there. I’d say that, you know, wherever you are in this innovation journey, whether you’re just starting to think about innovation or you already got an initiative in mind that you want to develop or that you’re developing, or even if you’re an expert and you want to be stretched and challenged so you can continue to push the boundaries and lead the way in your industry, you want to start by changing the way that you think. You want to start by getting better at solving problems.
One of the ways that you can do that is by asking more powerful questions. And I have a resource for you that will help you to identify the blind spots that your organization could be overlooking. So no matter if you’re at that C-suite level or if you’re a senior leader or you’re an aspiring leader of rising star, just train your brain to be a better problem solver and think differently will kind of move you _____ along that journey.
So this resource, you can download from our website, it’s a free resource code 42 CEO Questions to Maximize Your Innovation Initiative, and it’s going to help you to just think about questions that you may have missed that will help you to move things forward, to think more strategically. And you can access this free resource at Sandbox2Boardroom.com. Again, Sandbox2Boardroom.com/gift and that’s for you as your resource to just start getting moving forward your initiative.
And then I invite those _____ sort of looking to be more, if you’ve got an initiative coming up in the next 60 to 90 days and you really sort of want to move things forward and strategize to connect with me directly, I’m happy to give you some ideas that can really kind of move that forward for you a little bit quicker.
Andrea: Excellent! OK, I love that, the questions. This is going to be fun. So, we’ll make sure to put all that in the show notes as well at voiceofinfluence.net. Thank you so much, Leena, for being here today and for what you are and are going to do in the world.
Leena Patel: Thank you for having me, Andrea! It’s been such a pleasure speaking with you.
Dr. Espen Klausen is a regular here on the Voice of Influence podcast and he’s back again this week. This time, Dr. Klausen is here to discuss mental health for pastors.
In this episode, we cover the role the church has played in Dr. Klausen’s from the time he was a child to now, the unrealistic expectations we placed on pastors to always have it all together, how our bodies are designed to handle stress, his tips for what pastors can do to help protect or improve their mental health, and more.
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Today, I have with me Dr. Espen Klausen who is a regular here on the podcast. I appreciate his psychological, spiritual point of view and the wisdom he has to share with you, the audience. And so I continually invite him back whenever we have some particular questions that fall within his realm of expertise.
Andrea: So today, Espen, you’re here to talk to us, specifically, about pastors and this has to do more with some of Espen’s own message and his own passion.
So, Espen, first of all welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Dr. Espen Klausen: Thank you so much, Andrea. I’m happy to be back.
Andrea: The thing that I wanted to ask you to start this off is what is this message that you have that pertains to pastors? Where does it come from for you?
Dr. Espen Klausen: I’ve started a project and starting to offer seminars to churches to help their ministry staff in particularly pastors better understand mental health and provide better self-care when it comes to mental health. This mission comes of many experiences particularly in the last couple of years, but really throughout my whole life. I’ve grown up with pastors my entire life. I grew up in a little island in the end of Oslo Fjord.
Andrea: In Norway?
Dr. Espen Klausen: In Norway, yes. The local little church that could sit 50 to 75 people, and a 150 on Christmas Eve, just don’t tell the _____. It was right across the street from the house I grew up in. My parents were highly involved in the church community, and pastors will often come over for coffee before church services would start.
My first paid job was a church attendant at the church taking care of things for the service. It included being the secretary at the church council and since then I’ve been in around pastors all the time. Last year or two, I became an elder at our church and now has been a part of hiring ministry staff, consulting to ministry staff including pastors.
I also run a lot of mental health talks at some men’s conferences in all the church settings. One thing that’s become clear in the last five years is it’s predictable. Each time I do, one or more pastors will sneak in to the back row of my seminar and then right afterwards, or by email or phone later, will kind of sneak to get a few words one-on-one with me and they’re thirsty to better understand the mental health and also to better deal with the challenges that they’re facing.
And this has culminated into over the last couple of years; we’ve had a big rise in suicide among pastors. One of them was in Appleton, Wisconsin, which is just half an hour away or 45 minutes away from our own church. So it was a big loss to the community. Mental health issues seemed a big problem among pastors. They need help but they have a hard time finding it or asking for it because we have these unrealistic expectations of pastors.
We expect them to have it altogether. We expect the stress should not be getting through them. And very often, the pastors themselves often have this belief that everything emotional or mental is spiritual. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior, which is the most important thing of all and is something I wish on everyone on this earth, yet just like coming to Christ, does not make you broken leg not broken.
Coming to Jesus Christ does not mean that past trauma or defects physically in your body and brain of stress and hearing about other people’s suffering all the time and having responsibilities that can easily take you 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90 hours a week, those things are still going to affect your body and still going to affect your mind whether you believe in Christ or not?
Andrea: So true, so true. You know, you have this little story on your brochure and website, do you mind sharing that little story with us? Do you know what I’m talking about?
Dr. Espen Klausen: Yes, yes. I was 6 years old or so you know how childhood memories go, it would take a couple of years. But it was one of these Sundays I talked about where couple of pastors were having coffee in our kitchen before service. Whatever reason, there was a line mask around and I put it on. And I walked into the kitchen and I looked up at the pastors peering through those poorly placed peeping holes in the mask and I go “Roarrrrr!” The pastor goes “Huhh huhh huhh, do you eat people?” And I said “Yes, and I eat pastors too!”
Very cute but the real moral of the story afterwards apart from one of the pastors immediately rewriting his sermon and finding a way to put it in because every pastor needs a “On my way to church this morning” to include in their sermon. Apart from that, the really important thing of that story is myself as much as most other people I believe right there. I really said the crux of the problem right there “Do I eat people?” “Yes, and pastors too.”
We often forget that pastors are people and pastors often forget this too. We sometimes have this sense that somehow the Holy Spirit has inoculated ministry staff from suffering the effects of life that affects everyone else and they’re people too, and yes lions would eat the pastors too. I’m not to talk with _____ about it but I think you can stretch that far.
Andrea: I love that story because it’s such a telling example of what you’re saying that everybody, I think most people, do have that sort of the pastors on the pedestal kind of perception. I remember having a conversation with a pastor myself and he was talking about how hard it is to have actual relationships with pretty much anybody but especially anybody in his congregation.
He was just kind of implementing how lonely it is and people just don’t really try to befriend them or that sort of thing, he and his wife. And I said “Yeah, but everybody is intimidated by you.” I mean, “They don’t think that you need it but they also feel like you are above them, so it’s pretty hard to want to do that.” He was like “Really, they think that?” I thought, “You don’t realize that they think that.”
We got something to talk about here because, yeah, I think it really is hard for parishioners from most people, the vast majority of people, to actually have good conversations with the pastor and feel like they’re not being judged or feel like they’re going to be scrutinized. And maybe that’s how people perceived being having a conversation with a psychologist too, I don’t know.
Dr. Espen Klausen: Yeah, and really the problem is just as much than in the in the other direction because now the pastor is sitting there. Even the person who invited the pastor over, the pastor is always sitting there “Am I there as a friend and I can relax and I can share my own internal struggles, or am I a pastor and a shepherd of one of my sheep?”
Actually, I made a point out of the following; I have friends that are pastors. But in order to really develop those friendships, there have been times when I’ve invited them, “Hey, let’s have coffee.” Or “Would you come over for games, I’ve invited a couple of guys too?”
I made it sometimes explicit in my text or an email and say “Hey, as a friend, I would like to hang out with more.” And then the invite because, otherwise, pastors usually don’t know what it is. Is this an excuse to get together to talk about something difficult? Is it, “They’re inviting me because I’m a leader in the church and important to them but I’m still on this pedestal?”
But that said, we will now getting in to know their characters which is a big struggle, I think, for many pastors. Our churches have been going through some changes over the years of who’s there or not and it felt bad for pastors with it following. Pastors don’t have exits. They don’t have a real exit strategy that would be palatable to most other people.
Most of us, if we have a job where it’s not going the right direction or we want to move in a different direction or we’re just so stressed, we need to find a less stress job. For a pastor to do that, they are usually not just giving up their job. They’re expected to promptly lead their church family. They’re also would be expected to lead most of their friends because most of their friends are going in that church family.
A pastor stepping down from pastoral job to something less stressful is often seen as a failure, even though it shouldn’t. Although many pastors do end up stepping down, because it is too stressful, but is this draconian expectation usually that when a pastor steps down from a church, he also leaves the community and go to a different _____.
Andrea: Right, and it make sense why that would be the case. I’m not sure what your take on at this but I can see why a church would say that a pastor would really need to stay away for a while because they’re naturally still looked at as the leader. So if you try to bring on another leader in, it could easily, I don’t know, I could see that going bad.
Dr. Espen Klausen: Yeah. There are good reasons for it. It’s important to do something like that so that you don’t split the church where there’s unclear leadership. So there are all good reasons for that which is actually even more so why it’s a problem for the pastor because it forces them into that situation.
A lot of pastors that I’ve talked with feel stuck or they’ve a hard time stepping down from certain things or stepping back from a friendship that’s not all that healthy. They’re a part of the congregation and if they step back from that and that is other repercussions.
But even more importantly, like we talked about earlier, the relationships are often one-sided. It’s hard for the pastor to find the same kind of ability to be open, admit mistakes, or talk about weaknesses. But really, even more importantly, to be real and express, having emotions and doubts, stress and anxiety and bouts of sadness; all of which are not weaknesses. All of which are not spiritual difficulties, all of which are what you would expect from any person who’s put to the amount of stress that the pastor is.
But again, we have this notion that all of those things, somehow, indicate spiritual weakness. So they often don’t feel the safety that they can. So a big reason for my seminars that I’m launching and starting to offer to churches to provide pastors with the education that, because it’s not just the pastors face this from others, the pastors tend to face this with themselves.
Andrea: Right, almost even in a bigger way. A lot of pressure we can put on ourselves.
Dr. Espen Klausen: Yes, and they feel guilty about feeling sad or they feel guilty about having anxiety because they often feel “Oh I’m not trusting the Lord enough,” or whatever phrasing they use not realizing that many of these things are per God’s design for us. He created us with a nervous system that acts through things in certain ways.
So the whole other podcasts is the learning and biological and brain rewiring benefits of a bout of depression when it’s happening the way it should, the importance of anxiety of how we cannot take away stress without taking away the positive side of stress. All of these are part of normal good mental health.
But when we don’t deal with them or we don’t cope with them or receive them as indicating a problem then really we’re really heading down a bad track. Now, I should say, I’m not going to imply here that this is the same for biologically based mental health issues. God has created us in amazing ways but in A full world, everything fails.
Depression in a normal way is supposed to serve a purpose. But in a broken biological full world, people’s brain can kick into a depression and stay in a depression when it serves absolutely no good functional purpose at all. Or can have an anxiety disorder where it’s “Hey, it’s our normal anxiety system that’s good; we’re supposed to have it. It’s by God’s design.” But if we live in a full world and you went haywire and someone has an anxiety disorder.
I’m not saying that all anxieties serve a good purpose, I’m saying when God originally designed us and before the full mess these things up, we all had good parts and we all have these when we’re supposed to and when they are good. But when we then over spiritualized them, we see them as problem rather than God’s design.
Andrea: I can personally relate. I mean, I certainly been through a situation where I really was over spiritualizing. I felt like I was such a bad like, “I should know this. I should figure this out.” And I’ve heard other people say this as well where they feel like they should be able to get over something. But then it turns out that they really just need to get more sleep or whatever physical thing they need to take care of. That’s a really important point.
Dr. Espen Klausen: One of my personal favorite examples is both mental and, to some extent, physical challenges that we have is we go through the day. They will cause physical reactions in our body. And some of those physical reactions, really, only have one way to get better and that’s to do something physical.
Our stress is formed in our brain. That’s the part of the brain that puts us into a stress mode. It’s the part that let us go go go to get things done which often pastors are under because they have 12 hours that’s supposed to get done in six hours and they’re really tired but it gets them going and it does fantastic thing, this cortisol and that’s the stress hormone in our brain.
But the way it leaves the brain and the way it leaves our blood supply is to get burn up in our muscles. And when we face stress through the day even if it they’re mental, our body is always ready for physical challenge even if the challenge we’re actually facing is emotional, mental, cognitive, social; our body still responds as if this is going to be a physical challenge. So our muscles tensed up, our breathing changes, and yes that cortisol level gets higher and stays in our bloodstream.
But the only thing that’s going to reset our muscles to a relaxed state or is going to get rid of the cortisol is physical activity, yet almost never do I encounter a pastor who’s exercising enough. And no amount of bible reading or trust in Christ is going to make your muscles relax when they’re tensed because of the challenges they’re gone through.
Believing in Christ and reading the bible and praying just not burn cortisol out of your bloodstream except in the situations, which I believe can happen, where God has ordained, this pastor is on a mission, he’s doing five seminars in three days, and is helping a lot of people. And I do believe there are times God helps people through and can supernaturally intervene in that way.
But we don’t plan our life for supernatural intervention in that sense. Pastors do have to learn how to deal with the reality of how God created our bodies to respond with stress, sadness, grief, or loss. Never mind something that I often share which is the challenges of vicarious trauma, that is listening to other people’s pain, listening to other people’s suffering, and hearing the sins and struggles of others. It does take a tool and it does require ways to deal with that.
Andrea: So what kind of suggestions do you have for pastors, for people who are supporting them to create a system or put something in place that is going to help them move through life, I guess, in their role as a pastor with better mental health? What kinds of things do you think the pastors should put in place?
Dr. Espen Klausen: OK, here are a few suggestions. If you want more; hey, there’s a six hour seminar I offer.
Andrea: Exactly.
Dr. Espen Klausen: But here are a few basics. I believe any pastors should have 20 minutes of heart pumping, out of breath exercise every day. If there’s someone that’s _____, it’s a basic recipe for handling stress. It goes back to what I’ve talked earlier. You don’t deal with that physical part; none of the other part is going to really help with it. It has to be taken care of.
A 20 minutes a day will not do much to physical health that one just helps the mental health. Physical health will require you to exercise beyond that but 20 minutes a day; I would recommend it for the stress. When I go to high stress times, I apply it myself.
It is important for pastors to have at least one mentor, one check in person that is outside of their church. They need to maintain some network or some people that they can go to so that they can dare to be weaker with that person or express what they may think is a weakness. Someone that they can talk with that is not identified as one of their flock as a shepherd. They need outside of that. It could be a pastor at a different church. It could be an old friend that’s also a believer from childhood. And hey, it can be a therapist.
I would highly recommend that but very often I run into, again, many of the pastors that have sneaked in to talk to for a few minutes, I said “You know it could be really good for you to see a therapist. It can be me or someone else.” And he’s like “No, I couldn’t do that.”
Andrea: Hmmm, I wonder why?
Dr. Espen Klausen: Again, because they often feel that if they see a therapist, either it means, they themselves had to admit things are difficult. Or they’re afraid other people might find out and they’re going to think that they shouldn’t be in leadership and are not in a good place spiritually. Because if you’re in a good place spiritually why would you need to see a therapist.
Andrea: So you’re saying that somebody who is in a church or helping lead the church but may not be the pastor should not be suspicious of a pastor who is getting therapy or going to therapy?
Dr. Espen Klausen: Absolutely, should not because any pastors or someone in major ministry in a church they’ll be under enough stress and _____ to understand the mental health and deal with so much vicarious trauma from what they hear and counsel others with that they really probably should be a therapist. A stand recommendation for therapist is to be in therapy, and I think most pastors in one capacity or another do serve us therapist in the form of pastoral council.
Andrea: Another action could possibly be spiritual direction?
Dr. Espen Klausen: Spiritual direction is something that can be helpful with that. Spiritual direction has its limitation when it comes to usually knowledge on mental health. But it can help with processing with someone else to some extent that vicarious trauma, it is great for being able to have some humility and reexamine yourself, so spiritual direction or getting spiritual director is certainly very helpful tool in that regard.
Another recommendation I have for pastors too, it’s going to take a little bit more explanation. Some of your listeners maybe familiar with the following concepts and others would not but that’s what’s called spiritual temperament. We all have different spiritual temperaments. You go online or you look of articles. There are books and articles of spiritual temperaments. But what it really boils down to is we each have different ways that we naturally connect with God in which we feel God’s presence or feel like we actually get into it with God.
There are a lot of different temperaments, but usually each church emphasizes one to maybe three of those different spiritual temperaments. I’ll give examples for spiritual temperaments, intellectual. It’s learning about God, studying the bible to learn more facts and more understanding, how does the trinity work, what are these doctrines, or what’s the nature of God on a very intellectual level.
For others, it’s enthusiasm. It’s getting into the worship, feeling God’s presence or a collective spiritual temperament which often off with enthusiastic, which is being with other believers and worshiping God together. For others, it’s ecstatic which is get rid of all sounds, get rid of all distractions, not study the bible except maybe take one verse and just read it, just spent with God in silence.
For others, it’s nationalist. It’s going out being in nature; see a part of us called general revelation which is which part of general revelation is to see the evidence of God in his creation. And I can go on and on and on about different spiritual temperaments.
But we usually connect better with God in which it’s very good for healing a lot of emotions and wounds when we can connect God on a good level, yet the church we’re in as ministry staff will not always cater to all of this. In particular the pastors of the church is likely going to hold you into one of the spiritual temperaments that that church does but that might not fit your way of worshiping.
I’ll give you an example out of discovery of my own. People that knew me or maybe I’ve referred to this in the podcast before, but a couple of years ago, I was struck by a patient. And I went through a long period recovery from a concussion. In that period of time, I could do almost nothing.
I could physically and mentally do anything, but just for the sake of my brain healing, I had to limit as much sound as possible. I should stay in a dark room. I should try not to think about stuff. I should not read anything. I should certainly not go on a screen, I just needed to do absolutely nothing.
And up until then, I’d always thought, I was an intellectual when it comes to my spiritual temperament is how I connected with God. Except during that time of recovery when I was forced to slow down and then spent my time with God in quiet with absolutely nothing, I started connecting with God in a way that I’ve never been before.
And by now I’m realizing because I never really had the opportunity or never made myself do it when it comes to connecting with God. Because I’m going to connect with God the best personally, not the way for everyone else but that’s my spiritual temperament, I have to clear everything else away.
That also means I’m not going to connect with God the most while I’m church unless we have a very specific service for that. Now, how does this go back to pastors? Well, if the pastor’s spiritual temperament does not match what the church does then they need to really carve out that time for themselves. The pastors have a hard time doing that because it doesn’t fit into their schedule.
If a pastor’s spiritual temperament is intellectual, they’ll prepare for the sermon by studying the bible or reading up about it. If they’re enthusiastic, they’ll usually engage themselves more in the worship team and leading of that. But if their spiritual temperament doesn’t quite match how services are done, they really need to get focused on finding it themselves, in their own life.
Now, I’m jumping here but we were talking what things pastors can do. Really, I recommend for any pastor pick up some good psychology books, seriously. But avoid the pop psychology, not about the pop psychology. Read more the foundational stuff that that’s not. Pick up a book of cognitive behavioral therapy. You’re not going to do cognitive behavioral therapy with yourself, but it’s probably going to teach you a lot about how our thoughts and feelings and behaviors work regardless of your condition. Pick up books to learn about how anxiety works. And in that sense, find one that’s not written from a biblical perspective.
I never read books on anxiety that kind of biblical but I read many books on anxiety. When I read about depression that’s not pop psychology but good science on how our brain works and good therapy for depression and stuff. It’s not kind of biblical. Actually, a lot of these things, the way I like to describe it, many of these things only need a slight squeeze and they would drift with spiritual truth.
Once you come to understand these things, the applicability and how it fits in with biblical truth and God’s plan then all there _____. But it’s important for pastors that they understand how anxiety works, how stress works, how sadness works and so many other conditions that just part of the way God has created us.
Andrea: Wow, there’s obviously so much here. I’m really fascinated by the spiritual temperaments. And like you said, there are probably a couple of more podcasts in here somewhere. But I really appreciate you sharing with us some of these insights about how pastors can really give more attention to their mental health and to taking care of themselves. And I think those of us who are supporting pastors or wanting to support them, we have a little bit better idea how to do that.
And Espen, when it comes to doing your workshop and working with any pastors, how can people get a hold of you for that?
Dr. Espen Klausen: I would direct people to my website. It’s very creatively named. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to name my website. It’s www.espenklausen.com which just happens to be my name.
Andrea: Yes, and we’ll certainly have that in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in hiring you to come and do a workshop for pastors or speaking at a conference or something like that and that’s where you can find you then.
Dr. Espen Klausen: Yeah and the contact information will be there. There are flyers up there for the specific _____. But I also there have _____ of other kinds of trainings and seminars that I can provide at the intersection of mental health and spiritual matters and how it applies to how we understand how our mind works.
Andrea: Awesome! Thank you so much. I’m glad that you’re doing that Espen. It made me really happy to see this new offering that you have and I know that you’re going to help a lot of people. So thank you!
Dr. Espen Klausen: Thank you so much and thank you for having me.
Have you ever looked at someone you admire and felt pressured to be like them, do things the way they do, or feel what they feel?
Where does this pressure come from? Yourself?
How much do you judge yourself based on what you admire about that person?
I want to help you stop the judgments and instead focus on what it is about that person that you resonate with. What is that person awakening in you?
In this episode, I’m going to provide some insights that will help you do this; including why I personally believe that comparing ourselves to others isn’t always a bad thing.
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Today, we’re going to be talking about Pressure, the pressure to feel like you ought to be or do something in particular that somebody else is or does or says that you should do.
I want you to imagine someone in your mind who you really admire. You admire them for the way that they are, for who they are, or for something that they do. I have a feeling that there’s somebody in your life that you really admire. So just take a minute and think about them and I’ve got a question for you.
And I’ve got a question for you, first of all, what do you admire about them? What is it that comes to mind? You love the way that they do this. You wish that you could do that. You see something in their life that looks so attractive that you really wish that it could be something that you had to.
On a scale of 1to 10, how much do you judge yourself based on what you admire in this other person? So when these things come to mind, these things that you really like about them, how much do you judge yourself based on that?
So one would be “Oh, I really don’t judge myself at all. I’m not saying that I’m worse or better than them, I just really admire this about them.” And then on the other side would be a 10 where you completely determine your own value based on how much you are able to do or not do the things that you admire about that person. So my guess is that you’re somewhere in the middle, most of us are. Hopefully you’re not too high up at the top like a 10.
But let’s just be honest with ourselves for a minute here. How much time do you spend comparing yourself and then judging yourself based on other people in your life? Or maybe not in your life but maybe on a podcast or in a book or online, some place, or somebody that you admire? How much time do you spend on that?
Now, here’s the thing. I’ve talked about some of these things that we’re going to talk about today before. But today, I really would like to focus on taking the pressure off. There’s so much pressure on each of us that we put on ourselves most of the time, but sometimes it comes from other people and we accept that pressure to be or do something like someone else. And it can feel like we’re less than other people because we know that we’re not good at this particular thing.
So let’s take an example, because I realize that you may be thinking to yourself “Well, I don’t think that way,” but the truth is maybe you do. And maybe you don’t need to listen to this episode or maybe you don’t and you should listen to this episode so that you can help others.
But think about that because we each have these people in our lives that we admire. And I think that’s OK, because there’s a difference between admiring somebody even comparing ourselves with them. I don’t think comparison is really the enemy because comparison can help us differentiate. Comparison can help us to understand how we are uniquely different and how they are uniquely different and how we can work together in our differences.
So comparison in and of itself I don’t think is the problem. What becomes a problem is when we judge ourselves or we judge other people based on that comparison. So we start to feel bad about ourselves or we start to feel high and mighty about ourselves because we have compared ourselves to someone else. So that’s something to really think about because comparison isn’t the enemy, judgment is.
OK, so the next piece of this is that you can admire somebody and that can turn into that self condemnation or a race to beat that person or to try to become that person or become elements of that person. Maybe they have a really clean house and you don’t have a clean house. And so you feel like crap all the time and you keep trying to pick your house up and you never quite get it like this other person does.
I would definitely be that person who does not clean her house very well. I try, I try, but it’s not very often super clean or super put together. So it would be easy for me to look at somebody’s house who is super clean or super put together.
I think, even for me, this is one thing that I noticed about myself is that I admire, really admire people whose houses are so, I think put together would be the way to put it, where they have an intentional reason for all these little things that are in their house and things have a place and they don’t have a lot of clutter and things like this. I really admire that. It’s something that I would like to get better off for myself.
But here’s what can happen in situations like this, we could look at that person that we admire and say “Oh man, I don’t even wanna be around that person,” or “I don’t wanna be in their house because it reminds me of how bad I am at that.” Does that sound familiar to you at all? Are you trying to avoid somebody because you admire them so much and it’s just feels like this is in your face all the time that you’re not what you wish you could be? If that’s the case, I’m really sad to hear that because I don’t think it has to be like that.
I think that we can admire somebody and allow it to just be that like “Wow, I just have such an appreciation for you and what you’re able to do. I have appreciation for this well put-together house,” without putting a lot of pressure on yourself to ever become that. Maybe you can be inspired by it, maybe you can say “Hi, I wonder if you have any tips for me,” without feeling the pressure to become what they are, to get your house to the point at their houses.
And when I’m talking about pressure, I’m really talking about, I think you know that feeling that “Huh, I just feel like I’m supposed to be like that. I’m not, so I feel bad about myself and so I don’t want to think about it. I don’ wanna be around them. I need to try harder.” That’s pressure, and I don’t think that’s necessary.
So another way to look at this is to see people that you admire and realize that maybe they actually have tapped into something, they’re good at something that you actually do want to be good at. I mean, not just want to. I’m not saying you should be good at it. I’m saying like you feel awakened when you see them do their thing. You feel like something inside of you has just awakened, is inspired, is motivated and is saying “Huh I do want to be like that.”
So I could tell you that from my personal experience besides the house thing that through the years when I was growing up and in my young adult life, whenever I would watch a speaker onstage, I would think to myself or an author, I would think to myself “Man, I really wish I could be like that.” I really admire them and if I did really admire somebody, I’d be feeling like “Oh gosh, why isn’t it not me up there?” That sort of thing and that could easily turn into pressure.
It could easily turn into “Well, I need to do what they’re doing,” or I feel like such a failure because they’re younger than me and they have more success in this area. That could easily turn into a pressure. And that’s something that I think that we really need to turn off.
We need to take that pressure off of ourselves and say “No, I don’t need to judge myself based on my comparison with that person just because they’re younger than me, or just because they have more followers than me or they seem to have a bigger impact than I do for whatever reason.
Instead of judging yourself based on that, could you allow yourself to be awakened to what might be a calling for you? So for me when I would see these speakers and authors and things, I would think “Oh gosh! Oh, I really do want that!” It was like I felt called to it. Like I felt I really truly wanted it, not so much that I felt like I should be that or that I should have what they have but then I wanted it.
I think that when we talk about comparison as being a bad thing, the danger of that is that we start to turn off all of our abilities to think critically about how we are different and what we should be. So instead of being honest about the fact that we have a desire, we try to turn it off because we start to feel bad. We feel this pressure and we start to feel bad and so we turn off the comparison and we kind of know more ourselves to that comparison because we know what it has done to us in the past.
Maybe you have felt a lot of pressure. I don’t want to feel that pressure, so I’m just going to avoid it or I’m going to _____ it. I’m going to say, “I don’t care.” Kids do this all the time, don’t they? “I don’t care,” or when we’re self-critical, we try to beat people to the punch and say, “I’m an idiot.” I’ve said that to myself before. I try to beat people to the punch because I don’t want somebody else say that about me because I feel like I should be something different.
So we do these things that distract us from what’s truly in our hearts what might be an actual calling, a desire to actually move towards something. So if you’re somebody, who, like me, sees people who are writing books and out there speaking or maybe an entrepreneur or maybe they are just somebody who seems like they have it together for this or that and you feel awakened to a desire inside of you. That is different than feeling pressured to become what somebody else says.
So instead of turning it off, avoiding it off, or avoiding that person, get down to asking yourself, “What is it that I’m feeling awaken to? What excites me about this, about where they are and what they’re doing? What doesn’t?” This is where you get to compare yourself. This is where you get to do that comparison. You’re not saying that they are better or worse than you are. No, no, we’re not judging here. What you’re doing is you’re doing some discerning about your own calling.
I went to this talk and this person got up there and he spoke and he just awakened something inside of me. And for a split second, I felt bad about where I’m at right now but then I remembered that, “No, this isn’t about feeling pressured, this is about finding what I desire, finding out what I really feel called to.”
So let’s ask myself these questions, “Self, what do I feel called to then? What is so exciting to me about what I’m seeing? What was awakened inside of me, a desire for what? What piece of this or what pieces of these just really energized me? And perhaps what doesn’t? What something about this that I’m not excited about?”
And that’s OK. It’s OK to admit that as well, “You know what, I don’t really like that they did this because I would do it differently.” That doesn’t mean that you’re judging them. That means that you’re trying to figure out what your voice is, you’re trying to figure out what you are called to and then allow them to be who they are.
So a few months ago, I spoke at a conference in Las Vegas and I just had a few minutes onstage but it was so _____. I had such a blast because I love the stage. If you read UNFROZEN, my book, you know I love the stage. I felt guilty about it for a long time like I shouldn’t love it. And then I realized over the years I kind of come to terms with the fact that it’s OK for me to love being onstage.
So when I got up there in front of a 150 people or so, I just got up there and owned it. I felt like I was owning the stage and afterwards the conference organizers had everybody do a little survey. And so on the survey, they asked different questions like from a scale of 1 to 5, how engaging was this presenter? From scale of 1 to 5, how much did you learn and that sort of thing. And I got to take home all of these surveys.
So I went through and on my way home, I calculated all the responses. And really they calculations were really high. I actually got some really good responses between 4 and 5 for everything. But there were a few individual responses, and one in particular, he was so critical. One person, you could tell who did not like me. And they didn’t feel like they learned anything because I talked about the same thing that they do. OK, fair enough. They did not like the way I was dressed. We’re talking like they’re giving me a 1 or whatever.
They felt like I was acting onstage which nobody else did but they did. You know things like these, and I was just like “Oh my goodness, this person is like really, really critical.” And this is what I think that we do when we are comparing and judging at the same time. I think that we look at somebody else and say, “I wouldn’t do it like that.” And so we mark them down in our minds and that instead of saying, “This was effective,” or “This wasn’t effective for me,” or “This wasn’t effective for me but I think it would be effective to these other people.”
So if you’re in that position where you’re looking at somebody and you’re saying, “I really admire them but I really don’t like this and I really do like that.” Well, you don’t have to put judgment on it. You can say, “This is really effective for me. This would be really effective for the audience I want to reach. This would be really effective but this other thing maybe I didn’t like it and I wouldn’t do it, but maybe it would reach somebody else.”
My tendency is to always be looking for what’s effective and what’s not. And when I watch other speakers, I’m thinking to myself “Is this perfectly put together, but is this effective? Is it getting people where they want to go? What about myself, is what I’m doing effective or not.” So here’s where I’m coming back to this. I’m coming back to comparison isn’t bad. Comparison saying whether or not you are like somebody else and how and whatever, that’s OK as long as you’re not adding judgment to it.
But you can ask yourself what awakens desire in me and what doesn’t. So you can let that person be that person. You’re not saying that they should be different by doing this process of comparing and figuring out, discerning what you want to be. You’re not saying that they should change. You’re not judging them nor are you judging yourself. What you’re doing is your discerning your calling and you’re saying, “Well, maybe they are called to do just what they’re doing and that’s totally fine.” Or maybe they could up in a notch, maybe there’s some way that you can help or that somebody else can help, that’s fine. That’s totally fine.
What I’m saying is you don’t have to feel bad about comparing yourself to other people, because if someone that you admire awakens something inside of you, something that they do or something that they say and it awakens something inside of you and you’re like “Wow, I really want that!” This is where you’re following your heart to find you’re calling. This is doing a little bit deeper in our work to be able to figure out what you’re really called to.
But if you look at somebody and you say, “Wow, they’re doing these amazing things, but I can admire that and not want it or not judge myself based on them on what they’re doing.” That’s a really healthy place to be.
So when you are listening to this podcast, when you’re listening to Voice of Influence and you hear me talk about things like vision and mission and voice and understanding what your message is and things like this, this may or may not be for you. Because there are some people in the world, who, maybe like me, long to have a certain message and a certain impact. We long to find our calling and we’re having a hard time doing it.
When I was having a hard time doing it, I needed to get clear on all the chaos on my head. I needed to get clear on what I most care about so that I could know how to focus my energy. Does every single person in the world need to do that? I don’t think so. In fact, I think what’s important probably more than anything _____ is to know what you really care about, what standard you’re going to measure everything by.
So here’s the thing. This is where I was thinking about this earlier, I need clarity around my message and offering. But somebody like my husband, he needs to partner with somebody who has a message and an offering that he can relate to, that he can support, that he can get behind.
So while he may not feel like he needs a certain message or a certain offering, as long as he can feel supportive of what I’m doing, as long as he can feel like he relates to it, he agrees with it, it’s not just his values; all that sort of things then he can get behind it and help me in whatever way that we decide to move forward. But we’re focusing in on my particular message and offering for Voice of Influence.
So there are some people in the world who really do feel like they have something they need to say in particular and they want focus, they want to know all these things. And then there are other people who care. They have a voice and they use their voice but they do it in a way that is supportive and get behind what other people do.
Last week, I had on the podcast Susie Hageman. And Susie is one of these people who really cares about human trafficking and this is something that she chose to focused on because it’s a message she can get behind. And she is not the one that’s starting this nonprofits and writing about it per se, maybe she will someday, I don’t know. But it’s not necessarily like she is out on the front with the message, but she got behind this message, because she thought like she could and she felt like it resonated with what her values are.
That is exactly what I think we all need. We all need to know what were our values are so that we know what we want to get behind, whether we want to get behind it or we want to come out with this message or whatever. This is the kind of thing that I’m talking about when I say, you don’t have to be what you admire. You can admire someone else, their gifts, their offering, their message, all that sort of thing without feeling the pressure to have one of your own, to be that particular thing that they’re talking about.
So if listening to this podcast ever makes you feel pressure, I sure hope it doesn’t. But if it does, it’s totally OK to turn it off, because you should surround yourself with things that awaken your passion, your desire, your calling; and help you discern your calling instead of making you feel like “Oh my goodness, if I hear again about you know having a message or this or that and it just keeps bringing me down.”
I completely understand if you didn’t want to do that but I will also challenge you not to take that into the rest of your life. Don’t take that avoidance or tendency to compare and judge. Don’t let that come with you. Leave the judgment. Put it aside, whatever voices in your head from the past that are telling you should or shouldn’t be this or that, put it aside because you are so important the way that you are, how you have been created, how you had been built. The experiences that you’ve had have really drawn out things about you that are so important.
These are critical, critical in the world and don’t ever forget that. Please know that whenever I talk about having a message, whenever I talk about using your voice of influence, I’m not excluding anyone. And at the same time, I’m not saying that you have to be just like anybody. You really don’t need to be.
I think that the most important thing of this is that we really need, we desperately need to be free, free from this judgment. So do what makes you come alive. And yes, when it comes to passion, I talk about passion in terms of something you’re willing to pour yourself out for.
So it’s not always pretty, it’s not always happy go lucky, but it doesn’t have to be about looking at your fault all the time. It can be about what makes you come alive. It can be about what you want to live into, a vision for yourself and your life and your message and your calling that you want to live into that vision. That’s a whole lot different then and expectation that puts pressure on you.
So have vision, not expectation. Take the pressure off and go just use your voice. It will matter more!
Claudio Toyama is committed to raising the awareness of people around the world, so they live full and fulfilled lives at work and home. He is an international bestselling author, an award-winning speaker, and the CEO of Toyama and Company; an international leadership consultancy specializing in small shifts that produce big results. Claudio has delivered projects in over 113 countries and has lived in five countries on four continents. He is also a Forbes contributor and is a featured guest on NBC and FOX; where he shares his unique experience on leadership and company culture.
In this episode, Claudio and I discuss the main message he’s putting out into the world, why his message is so important, why he chooses to help people at the core of who they really are in addition to helping with their mindset or teaching a skill, why he believes most leadership programs fail, how to balance who are with small changes that can improve your impact on those around you, and so much more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Today, I have with me Claudio Toyama who is a committed to raising awareness of people around the world so that they live full and fulfilled lives at work and at home. He’s an international best-selling author and award-winning speaker and the CEO of Toyoma & Co., an international leadership consultancy specializing in the small shifts that produce big results.
He has delivered projects in over 113 countries and has lived in five countries on four continents. He is a Forbes contributor, a sought after international speaker and a featured guest on TV, including NBC and FOX, where Claudio shares his unique experience on leadership and company culture. He lives with his daughter outside Washington, DC (USA).
Andrea: Claudio, I’m so happy to have you here today on the Voice of Influence podcast!
Claudio Toyama: Thank you so much for this invitation, Andrea. Thank you very much. I’m glad to be here.
Andrea: And your bio didn’t mention it but you also have a book that you published, can you tell us a little bit? The name of that book, The Samurai Samba and Vinci Way: How to Improve Your Executive Presence, Increase Trust andLead Your Team at a World-Class Level. I really enjoyed reading this book and I’m excited to share and have you share more about it.
Claudio Toyama: Yes, yes excellent! So yeah, this book was published last year and it’s going to be a year now in October first. It was a great thing because in the first 24 hours. It got sold in 12 countries and now there has been 16 countries that people picked up a copy of and it’s been an amazing journey, getting a lot of positive feedback and people were saying that the message that I have is very needed message right now.
Andrea: Alright, tell us a little bit about this message of yours. I mean, what would you say is the core of your message that you’re trying to get out there as a message driven yourself?
Claudio Toyama: My main message is combining the three persona, you know the persona of the Samurai, the persona of the Samba, and the persona of the Vinci. Basically with the samurai, what I’m talking about is knowing who you are, the core. So focusing on your core and knowing truly who you are and going for mastery at everything that you do.
In this world, we see people getting lost. Before social media, it was the advertisement on TV. The advertisement said, “Oh if you don’t buy this car, you’re gonna be miserable but if you buy this car, you’ll gonna be loved and everything. If you lose weight, you’ll gonna be loved, if you don’t, you’re not. If you’re too skinny then you’re not loved.” So it’s always an external validation.
And my message with the Samurai is know who you truly are. Once you have that strong core, it doesn’t matter if you’re being bombarded with different messages and even sometimes they say, “Oh no, you should lose a lot of weight,” and then sometimes they say “No, you should put on weight.” And I was like “Oh which one do I follow?” But if you know who you are, the core, and you’re good with yourself then it doesn’t matter what’s going on around you and it doesn’t matter because you’re going to be very very centered.
And then the Samba is the fluidity, the flexibility. It is about going with the flow. That one for me was much more about the adapting to different cultures and then I started seeing that that message applies everywhere. If you go to a different place, if you go and talk to different friends, you can also be malleable and adaptable.
But why am I talking about the samurai and the samba together because if you are too rigid, you know because the samurai can have that rigidity to them. If you’re too rigid, you’re not going to go with the flow. But if you’re too flowy and too adaptable, you’re also going to lose yourself and you don’t know who you are any longer.
And then there’s the third element which is the Vinci, which is actually amalgamating everything that you are. If you remember the renaissance period in Italy where they had in Florence and different parts of Italy, you have that renaissance person like Leonardo da Vinci, you know that’s where the king comes from. He was very good at anatomy. He was very good at painting. He was very good at all sorts of different things and it was not just one thing. So he was bringing his whole self to everything that he was doing and that’s why he was so successful. That’s what I’m bringing back again is this renaissance person. So I’m bringing it altogether.
So if you combine the Samurai, Samba, and Vinci, you have knowing who you are, the core; being very flexible and being adaptive to different cultures and different environments and at the same time amalgamating everything that you are and thinking about the future and bring the future to yourself. So that’s the message in a not so much of a nutshell. It’s a little bit bigger than a nutshell.
Andrea: Oh yeah. No, that’s alright. It’s a big message. It’s a worthy of some discussions. OK, so why this message? Where did this come from for you and how it’s personal to you?
Claudio Toyama: As you mentioned, I have lived in many countries, so five countries so far. I’m now living close to DC and I was one that got lost. I was very flexible, so flexible that I wanted to become the stereotype of each one of the country that I lived in.
So I grew up in Brazil but when I went to live in Japan, I wanted to become the stereotype of the Japanese person. And then I went to Italy and started to become the stereotype of the Italian and I went to the UK and becoming the stereotype and I was like “Who am I? I don’t even know who I am anymore.”
There’s always change, there’s that pendulum. So if you’re too flexible then you’re going to go all the way to the other side of the pendulum and become very rigid. So I became very rigid and like “OK, my ideas are mine,” and like you know “Oh, this is who I am, take it or leave it.” And I was like “It doesn’t work either.”
Andrea: Right.
Claudio Toyama: Also, because when you have that kind of mentality, a lot of it is because you’re getting triggered because of your past and it’s not really who you are. You need to excavate who you really are and find yourself back again. We know that from coaching and we know your true self needs to be excavated from all of these layers that were imposed in society, you know societal expectations and all of that.
So I went in this quest to find out who I was truly and then I was always bringing beauty into life, which is also another part of Vinci. It’s amalgamating yourself and bringing your whole self to the equation but also it is about bringing beauty to everything that you bring to life.
That was one thing that when I moved to the US coming from European lifestyle where it’s much more about the joy of life and being in the moment. You know these kinds of things about _____ coffee that doesn’t exist in many parts of Europe. Coffee is meant to be a conduit for enjoying the presence of another human being with you and having the conversation.
That’s why it is so important to me because I was living that. I became that samba. That was too much of a samba then I became too much of a samurai and then I didn’t know how to amalgamate everything into the Vinci side of it. So that’s where I came from kind of my personal life.
And when I was thinking about what are the characteristics of leaders in the world that are the most successful leaders, they have elements of these three. So it’s not one or the other or another one.
Andrea: Yeah. When you start to talk about this with leaders, are they open to growing in this way? Because one of the things that you pointed out in your book is that subject matter experts tend to want to go deeper in their expertise where, quite frankly, they’re just more comfortable and they had success instead of learning something new. How do I apply this or how do I convince others or lead a team or whatever other kinds of things involved with leadership, how do people respond to this idea of going deeper and excavating their true selves and things like these?
Claudio Toyama: Mixed reactions. So I have people that are ready to embrace it and ready go to through this journey because it’s a journey. It is not something that’s one and done session and “OK, you’re gonna be transformed.” No, it’s a journey. When you start opening that up, it is a journey that sometimes it takes years to, not necessarily working with me but sometimes this journey once you open that can of worms, it’s going to take some years for you to really find yourself and especially if I work with a number of _____ executives and they have been doing that for their whole lives.
They’re now on their 50s or they’re in their late 40s or even on their 60s, can you imagine trying to change and trying to find themselves back again at that age? They’re very used to that, so very mixed reactions. But if they’re ready to go on this journey, it is amazing what they see and all the patterns that they see in their lives “Oh this is why this kept happening! Oh this is why I kept having this reaction to these things and it had nothing to do with the people that I was talking to.”
So they start seeing the pattern in their lives and then that journey becomes so interesting. So yes, mixed reactions but if they’re willing to go through that, it’s an amazing journey. There are bumps on the road but it’s an amazing journey.
Andrea: Yeah. I know how hard it can be to be the one, sometimes to even help somebody open up that can of worms. Not that you’re wanting to put them in a where they’re uncomfortable but at the same time when people aren’t comfortable and experiencing pain, sometimes that’s when they are able to best grow and they’re most open to learning something new. But that’s kind of hard.
I know you’ve been doing it for a very long time but when you come up against that resistance and you know that somebody is about ready to experience something difficult or remember something difficult, how do you help them or being with them and guiding them through that part of the journey, that difficult bump on the road?
Claudio Toyama: I think it depends on who was the person engaging my services, was it that person or was it their boss because they felt that there was something missing in them. So these are two completely different types of clients or people that I work with. If it is that later and if it is their bosses that wanted this person to change, sometimes you cannot go that deep, sometimes they are not willing to go that deep.
They say, “Well, you know, I’ve done this my whole life. I’ve done it this way, I’m not gonna change now. There’s nothing in it for me right now.” Even though there is because then it’s not just about their work, it’s about their whole self.
A lot of times, I see a pattern how they’re behaving with their children and how they’re behaving with their employees. And it’s the same problems and they cannot see it and I go “OK, if you shift just one degree here,” you know the small shifts. “It’s just one degree, it’s gonna be so much easier for you.” But they’re like “Nope, this is how I’m doing and this is how it’s gonna be done.”
So it depends, yeah. If they are the ones engaging with me then I can actually open more and I can actually talk to them and say “This is one of those moments that I said. It was going to be a little bit difficult or it’s going to be a little bit challenging and let’s go through it.” And the other side of me that a lot of people don’t know which is the spiritual side, so I work with a lot of energies.
A lot of times I can scan the person and see if there are some blockages on their energies and I can actually help them to release those energies. I work on the cerebral _____ on the mind but I also work on those energy levels that a lot of times people are not even aware of but that is also influencing them. There are certain blockages there that they are not even aware of but they are contributing to them not moving forward. So that’s another layer that I work on as well with my clients.
Andrea: So many, so many layers that could be addressed. You take everything really deep. You’re a deep person and you bring people into this conversation in your book in a real deep way and you’re inviting them to this deep transformation. Why do you go so deep? Is it always been something that you have done?
Have you just always kind of been really that reflective person or you know there’s other people who choose to focus on skills or to learn something new. You just kind of knew in your mind or mindset, but you’re kind of working at it in a deeper level at that core of somebody’s being, really. So tell me about why you do that and how that kind of started for you?
Claudio Toyama: Yeah. I was always this very introspective guy and I think it was a mixed of learning that and also being like that. So I grew up in this family where we had different languages being spoken, you know it’s a different parties. My father was Japanese. He grew up in Japan. My mom, you know, half Italian, half Austrian. My daughter is blonde and people look at me and is like “You look Asian and you have this blonde daughter, how did that happen?” You know because my mom is blonde and my ex-wife is blonde.
From an early age, I was always very introspective and always wanting to know more, because of that that mix of different cultures that we had, I was always very curious to go very deep into things. It’s fascinating because I was always the one noticing, let’s say, the person in the corner at school, the person who’s not being paid attention to. I was always the one going to that person and saying, “Are you OK? Are you fine?”
So I was always that person that wanted to know more about people and wanting to get to know people. I don’t know how to answer that question, but yes, it is innate in me. So I’ve always have that.
Andrea: You mentioned in your book too that there’s a lot of reasons why just focusing on leadership programs that kind of focus on those leadership skills that there’s a high failure rate in actually making the changes that they want to see happen in a person. And the fact that there’s not a deeper connection to the material seems to be a really important piece of that.
Claudio Toyama: Yes and it’s interesting because when you said you go very deep, thank you for acknowledging that. And also what I like to do whenever I’m working with clients or whenever I’m having conversation is how can this person have a quick win and at the same time be on that journey, on that long journey, because I know as human beings, we love quick wins as well.
In the Japanese tradition, it can take you 30-40 years for you to be able to _____ at the ceremony because you’re going to go for mastery. If you remember Karate Kid, you know like _____. I was like “OK, it’s gonna take you years to perfect something.” But for me, it’s “OK, so how can we have quick wins end go for the deep stuff as well?”
But your question about and the initial development and all that, what I always like to do is focus on who are you being when you’re doing anything. I don’t know if you got to that part of when I was delivering an advanced negotiation skills workshop for high powered lawyers at a new World Trade Center in New York and these guys came from different parts of the world and they were all there. Some of them have been negotiating for over 20 years these multimillion dollar contracts and I was there to deliver it in three days, three-day event negotiation skills workshop.
Andrea: And you’re laughing because?
Claudio Toyama: I’m laughing because I’m like “Oh my God, these guys are gonna eat me alive here, all these sharks.” I’m going to be _____ at the end of the first half hour, let alone three days. So I was like “OK, what kind I do?” So what we did was to focus on who are they being when they’re negotiating and pointing out different things that they were not even aware of because they have so unconscious behaviors that they were not aware of.
So even though they had all the techniques really mastered, they were very very different when they were negotiating. That’s why I talked about small shifts that create big results, when we did those small shifts and how they were being perceived, oh gosh that was an amazing shift, really amazing.
I just got some feedback recently from this guy that the small shifts was just putting his head down by half an inch when talking to people. And I said, “Do you notice that it looks like you’re talking down to people?” He was like “Huh thank you for that feedback, Claudio. I have this _____ and in order to see you clearly and it _____.”
So it felt like he was really snobbish and just like looking down on you. Once you start looking squared eye to the other person, people started commenting on him and everything. It was just a half an inch of a shift, really a physical shift. That gaze was a physical shift and how are you being perceived, who are you being when you’re doing anything.
Andrea: Yes, yes! I really appreciate the thoughtful way that you bring balance. Though you are talking about deep transformational kinds of things, on one level there’s the small shifts that you’re talking about and you also brought in the idea of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. And this is something that I was recently talking with a client about as well but when you are a subject matter expert, you’re really at the top level of the Maslow’s hierarchy. But then if you’re not addressing those deeper human means then it can easily topple over, so do you want to expand on that a little bit?
Claudio Toyama: Yes, it’s interesting that you say that. I would make a very similar comparison which is we are beginners. So coming from being the expert in a subject matter and when dealing with people, we are beginners all over again. That’s why it is so difficult for a lot of subject matter expert or for anyone for that matter to actually focus on the people side of the equation because in that realm, they don’t know anything or they know very little about it. So they are beginners. We are beginners in that.
To be able to say, oh I’m a beginner, for someone that gets paid to have the answers. Can you imagine if you’re an expert in a field and you’re getting paid to know the answers and not to ask questions or to be like “Oh I don’t know anything about this, can you explain it to me.” They have been trained to always have the answers. So being a beginner say it again who’s like “Oh this is scary. I don’t know if I can make it.”
Andrea: Yeah!
Claudio Toyama: You know, there was this guy you know, VP in an IT company. He was the vice president of the company and was still coding with his hands. He was still being involved in not just managing the people, he had a 100 people under him and he was still kind wasting time coding because that was what he was comfortable with. You see that very, very often in a lot of conferences because that’s their comfort zone and just like “Oh I’m not gonna go there, people, huh scary stuff.”
As you learn your profession, as you learn to become an expert at your profession, let’s say a biochemist or whatever it is, you got to learn how to deal with people. It’s all learned and that’s one thing that people don’t realize that it’s all learned. You can learn about that.
Andrea: So when you brought up the person, you mentioned to him in your book as well I think that was coding by hand as a vice president, is there any point in time that you ever recommend to somebody just don’t think the promotion? You know, because they’re really enjoying who they are and what they’re doing or maybe you don’t recommend anything? Do you ever think to yourself, you know, “I don’t think that they’re gonna enjoy moving on into a new position where there’s gonna be so much more required of them.” You know, basically making them start over again with people when they really are so good with the subject matter. What’s your take on that?
Claudio Toyama: I ask a lot of questions on that. You know, I have worked for some companies that now they have two different tracks. One track is the track of managing people and dealing with people. So they have that track of OK, so you’re going to become a manager, you’re going to become a director. You’re going to become a vice president. And the other track is you’re going to be an expert even more of an expert and you’re going to be a thought leader for the company and that’s the track they’re going to.
So if they have those two tracks, I ask “OK, so which one would you like to choose if you’re offered a promotion?” And then I ask “Why is that?” If it is out of fear of managing people then I ask if they’re willing to learn how to manage people. If it’s out of passion about what they do that’s a different story. Because if it’s passion then they can just go and they’re given deeper into what they’re doing.
And the other thing is for companies that don’t have those two tracks, so they have to take the promotion, otherwise, they will be you know. Then I ask them, “Ok let’s say that you don’t want to take the promotion, what would happen in your life? Are you gonna be ostracized? Are you gonna be fired after a couple of years? What is gonna happen to you? Is the company accepting of your decision not to move onwards?”
Sometimes you see the person is not going to go anywhere because they didn’t get the promotion. Sometimes there’s no option of not getting the promotion. If you don’t get it then you’re going to be booted out. So what are the consequences of not doing that? And again, I ask the same question you know, “Are you not wanting to do it because of fear or because of any other things?”
So I ask a lot of questions to really understand where that is coming from because sometimes it’s just that they don’t know how to start knowing how to deal with people. If that’s the case, they say “OK, we have a path and I can help you with that, or it’s not me there are other leadership coaches and leadership development people that can work with you.” But I always ask a lot of questions to see where they are, where they’re coming from, what is really getting in the way and all of those things. They’re so important you know.
Andrea: It sounds like, as long as somebody is open and interested, that they can grow.
Claudio Toyama: Yeah, it is. If they are open, there’s so much to be done. If they’re open there so much and that’s why when I go into different assessments to know what are their styles and to actually understand a little bit more, what can we focus on. Again, you know the small shifts and the quick wins, what are some of the small shifts so that they can see the changes and then they get inspired to continue on the journey.
Like this guy that I was working with, an Indian guy who has been living here in the US for almost 30 years now or even over years and working with his team. And because he would get so passionate about his subject matter, he would be like talking loud and everything and then people would get really scared and he didn’t know.
So one of the shifts was, I said “OK this is happening you know. This is the perception of people around you. They get really scared because you start talking really loud.” He was like “Oh, because I’m passionate.” I’m like “OK, but that’s not coming through. It’s coming through that you’re either too angry or whatever it is, but there’s too much emotion. So can you dial down a little bit more?”
He started doing that in different meetings and the feedback was immediate. The people were like “Oh my God, you have changed! Wow, this is really great!” He was still being really passionate but dialing down the volume and just one small shift that was just like a big, big change. So he was willing to go through the other changes that were needed also but he saw some positive feedback. So that was really great.
Andrea: I have to ask, you know, the next question then.
Claudio Toyama: OK!
Andrea: I love everything that you’re talking about and I think about this stuff too. So it’s just always fun to get into a conversation with somebody else that just thought about this as much as you have. OK, so let’s say this gentleman is too loud. He’s very emotional when he speaks, but in what sense, and how do you know and how do you balance that with “well, this is who I am” kind of a comment or not just a comment but owning who I am and I am a passionate person?
So if somebody says “I’m a passionate person,” how do I be me but turn the volume down and when is that OK and when it’s not? Tells us, what are your thoughts?
Claudio Toyama: I thought a lot of about that as well because I get a lot of people that people talk really loud and they say “Because this is me take it or leave it.” Again, going back to the samurai, “OK, so are you being adaptable? How are you being perceived by others? Is that the kind of perception that you want about yourself or not?” Sometimes you want to have a big impact but you’re rubbing people off in a wrong way and the message is not going across because you’re a little too much of something.
Then also the other thing is, in this case with the guy was cultural and I also look at that but I also look at their background, what is the background of the person because sometimes they are being loud because they didn’t have a voice when they were little. Remember that I talked about the pendulum?
Andrea: Uh-huh.
Claudio Toyama: They are that at that phase where they now feel that they have to be loud because that’s who I am. If you go back to their history is because maybe they were the third child or whatever, the middle child that never got to listen to and now they feel “Oh I now have to be over the top loud because people then will hear me.” And I was like, “Are they really hearing you or they just turning you off?”
So I ask those questions of “OK, what is the impact that you want to have and where is that coming from?” Where is that desire of, “Oh this is who I am?” Remember when I was talking about the different layers of societal layers, “Is that coming from you really or is that coming societal expectation or different things in your past that made you be this way?”
Andrea: Hmmm that you’re reacting then.
Claudio Toyama: Yes, I see that all the time. I see that all the time and sometimes with some women as well. Like that they have been in a very difficult marriage where the guy was just taking over and he was in command in everything. When they get out of that marriage, they get really loud and bold but it’s not who they are. They’re just over the other side of the pendulum and they will come back to a near ground. I’m not saying that loud voice is a reflection of something that happened in the past but a lot of it can be.
Andrea: Sure or a soft voice, yeah.
Claudio Toyama: Yes, exactly. Or soft voice like “Yes, I cannot do this. I cannot do that,” or you know, “Who are you really. Is it because you cannot or is it really who you are?”
Andrea: I don’t know. I’ve been able to handle it myself by saying you can be real without bearing all. So it can be authentic without being completely a 100% transparent, whether that’d be the message that you’re speaking or the way that you’re presenting it. I think you can be real without necessarily having to be the fullest version or tell the fullest version of your story.
Claudio Toyama: Yes, I agree totally. And for me for instance the spiritual side, a lot of times and very recently as I started talking about in professional environment because I was also feeling that “Oh my God, I’m gonna talk about being spiritual. They’ll gonna say that I’m gonna be doing Kumbayah every single meeting.” And it’s like “Oh we don’t want that guy in here.”
No, but the spirituality informs me and also these thing about depths because I always see, like it’s not only in this lifetime, it is also in this lifetime. So that’s the spirituality in me as well. What are some of the universal truth that applies to every single situation so that’s where it informs me, but I’m not going to be like bring an incense to your office you know.
Andrea: I know exactly what you’re talking about. OK, so I feel like we could keep talking for a long time and there are still some questions that I would love to ask about your book but I think time is kind of up. So Claudio, what point would you like the listeners to take from this interview, just talk to them right now? What do you want to say to them?
Claudio Toyama: Well, I think is what I would say is life is short. So find yourself and be yourself. That’s the journey that I have been on and it has been an amazing journey with a lot of bumps on the road but it has been an amazing journey of finding myself and knowing who I truly am and everything. So what I would say is yes, find voice. Yeah, that would be the message.
Andrea: How can the listeners find and connect with you or find your book, where would you want to point them?
Claudio Toyama: So yes, you can connect with me, if you’re on Twitter, it’s ClaudioGT or claudiotoyama on Instagram. If you send me a message or even on Facebook, Claudio Toyama and my website is toyamaco.com, toyama&co. You can reach out and that would be great to hear from you. My email address is claudio@toyamaco.com. I look forward to hearing from your fellows.
Andrea: I will put all those links in the show notes to make sure that people can find you on voiceofinfluence.net. So that’s where that will be.
Claudio, thank you so much for the work that you’re doing in the world with your voice in helping others to find theirs. I really appreciate it.
Claudio Toyama: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Andrea!
Eleni Anastos is the CEO of Business Insights Now and she specializes in uncovering money blocks to help business owners and individuals grow and learn in ways they never thought possible in life and business. She believes making connections and cultivating relationships is what matters most; including in your relationship with money.
In this episode, you’ll learn why Eleni believes that how you do money is how you do everything, how having a scarcity mindset about money can negatively impact your finances, the importance of realizing you’re enough, the different money personality types and how to discover your money personality, how to know when it’s the right time to invest in yourself, common limiting beliefs around money and how to reframe them, and so much more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea, and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast!
Today, I have with me, Eleni Anastos. She is the CEO of Business Insights Now and specializes in uncovering money blocks. That’s right, we’re talking about money today to help business owners and individuals grow and learn in ways that they never thought possible in life and business.
Now, aren’t you intrigued? She believes making connections and cultivating relationships is what matters most, including your relationship with money. Eleni has found that how you do money is how you do everything, and uncovering money blocks significantly impacts all areas of life, both personal and professional.
Andrea: Eleni, I’m so happy that you’re here with us today on the Voice of Influence podcast!
Eleni Anastos: Thank you so much, Andrea. It’s an absolute honor and pleasure to be with you today.
Andrea: Alright! So what would you say then is the core of your message?
Eleni Anastos: That money absolutely affects all of us and whether you’re an entrepreneur, you work in corporate, or you’re thinking about starting your own business; money impacts you. It’s a part of our every day existence. You know, you have bills to pay, you’re thinking about buying something, you’re saving for a house, yet money is often the one area that most people never want to talk about. And I always question, if you had a better relationship with money, how would your life then be different?
Andrea: Hmmm that’s interesting because I think that a lot of people who are kind of more message-driven were people that are thinking about the way we want to change the world and that sort of thing, money is not exactly something that we want to have to deal with. We wish we didn’t have to deal with it and yet, I can say what you’re saying. At some point, this is part of the problem or part of the issue.
So I’m excited to hear more about this. Why this message? Where did this start for you?
Eleni Anastos: Well, I started to realize that I felt a little disconnected in thinking about money as a relationship or having a relationship with money. I mean, if you want a rich and rewarding relationship with your spouse, with your kids, with a business partner, or with friends don’t you have to pay attention to them? So how you can expect to have a rich and rewarding relationship with money if you don’t pay proper attention to it?
Andrea: OK, I’m really curious, why this message for your voice? I know that you’re a teacher a long time ago, right?
Eleni Anastos: Yeah. I was a teacher for many many moons. For me, especially, you know, I was realizing that I was little uncomfortable talking about money and I had a very like close tight-knit relationship with money, almost too tight to the point where I had a scarcity mindset thinking “Oh there’s never gonna be enough to go around.” That can have the opposite of that like when I was teaching, I was constantly over delivering.
I was giving way above and beyond; you know what I was being compensated for. And I imagined that for people listening, they can relate to that to a degree. I was uncomfortable talking about money. I thought, “Wait a minute, I’m gonna have to deal with money for the rest of my life.”
And then several years ago when I wanted to start with my own business, I knew I had to get a grip on this. I had to right the ship because if I was so uncomfortable talking about money, how could I asks for a sale? How could I confidently state my fees? There had to be a better way.
Then I also realized too because I was kind of stuck in that little scarcity mindset that I ended up giving things away in that sense, undervaluing myself. I ended up just feeling miserable about it and I thought, “I can’t be the only person struggling with this.”
Andrea: What’s the difference between wanting to give and do things for other people having sort of a generosity mindset versus having a scarcity mindset?
Eleni Anastos: Yes. Well, one of my mentors often said, “Do not confuse your business with your charity.” And I’m extremely charitable and I love being able to help people when I can. But on the flipside though when I was undervaluing myself and undercharging for my services, you know, the irony is I didn’t have the money then to help the people I wanted to help or to do for others. So it’s a double edged sword.
So once I started placing proper value on myself and in my services then I was able to have the income to do the things to help others to donate when I wanted to.
Andrea: Yeah. We’ve talked about this on a podcast a couple of other times with some other guests about the idea of not realizing that you need to have a cash project in order to fund the heart projects.
Eleni Anastos: Yes. Yes, absolutely! It always goes back to me to really realize, you know, I mentioned scarcity and as you did as well and I believe it was Brene Brown that said, “The opposite of scarcity is enough.” You know, we have to start with I’m enough. We still need to grow and learn new skills, new behaviors; but if you don’t start with “I’m enough” that’s the only way to make and begin to grow and move away from the scarcity mindset.
When I was stuck in that scarcity mindset, thinking I just wasn’t enough and practically giving away my services, it was like I ended up chasing a quick fix or I just wanted a bandage to stop the bleed. You can’t build anything sustainable for the long haul in that headspace.
Andrea: OK, so when you say “enough” and maybe when Brene Brown says it, but what is it that we’re trying to be enough for?
Eleni Anastos: To realize that you have everything within you that you need. We all need help getting somewhere. We all need a bridge to get from where we are to where we want to be. But it’s realizing that you’re still whole regardless of where you’re starting from.
I just thought of a client that I’ve had who, he was brilliant. He’s extremely talented and creative but he was so afraid of talking about money. He had such a scarcity mindset and it wasn’t until we start working together that he realized that he adapts all these beliefs from watching his parents struggle with money. He heard things growing up, there’s never going to be enough to go around. Money is the bad guy. Money is evil. It’s just something we have to deal with.
So of course when he was venturing out on his own in his own business that was all weighing on him. Literally, the first thing he said to me when I met him was “I’m sick and tired of having to lower my fees just to get a client.” So he was already fed up and frustrated but he didn’t really realize the depth of what was going on, how lowering his fees kept him playing small. And he wasn’t going to ever be able to make the impact he wanted in the world to keep himself playing small.
Andrea: You know the fact that you can be enough but also want to grow at the same time; it reminds me of something that a professor of mine said a long time ago in a seminary. He talked about they’re being two stories a lot of times and we have to be comfortable with both stories.
There’s the story that essentially were enough or what I like to say on my end of things that “your voice matters” and it absolutely does and that’s just the way it is. It’s just, innately, it matters but at the same time you can make it matter more. You can grow in whatever that you’re going to grow and both stories are true.
To be able to hold those both at the same time is kind of tricky but it’s seems like it’s really important especially here when we’re talking about money and being able to say that what you’re offering or what you have is enough, while at the same time it’s OK to want to grow and want more.
Eleni Anastos: Yes, exactly! And again, I believe that it impacts every area of your life. When you can start to own your worth versus being so uncomfortable, because I’ve been here. I was so uncomfortable even talking about money, that again, imagine if you’re in your business for yourself that you could hesitate to ask for the sale or you might even apologize for your fees, or put way too much in your packages or program in what you’re being compensated for.
I had someone reached out to me that has a corporate job and he said, “Well, how did it impact me if I’m not setting my own wage?” I said, “Do you ever find yourself over delivering above and beyond what you’re being compensated for?”
So regardless for where you’re at in life, if you’re so uncomfortable even talking about money and owning your worth, it’s going to impact you. Then I will also question, “What other areas in your life are you not standing up for yourself or you’re uncomfortable even talking about?
Andrea: And money illuminates some of that?
Eleni Anastos: Yes.
Andrea: You’d an attitude about money or whatever?
Eleni Anastos: Yes, because when I see people being able to learn to have strategies or knowing how to value themselves and deep in their relationship with money, because we’re all hardwired to deal with money. We all have a money personality, if you will. And like any personality, we all have gifts and we all have challenges and there’s definitely no one that’s better than another at attracting abundance into your world, it really is about the awareness.
So you can champion your gifts or consciously navigate around your own challenges.
Andrea: OK, money personalities. Now, I’ve seen plenty of people become just so much more comfortable with themselves by understanding their personalities for this or their voice for that. And based on assessment and then realizing like you just said that there’s just strengths and challenges with any of these personalities that they’re not right or wrong or whatever. Tell us more about these money personalities because that’s something that’s really interesting and I know you had me take an assessment to help me find mine.
So can you tell us about this assessment a little bit or how you talk about personalities?
Eleni Anastos: Yes, absolutely. The assessment is a series of questions. Well, the good news is, you can’t study for it and you simply can’t get any answer wrong. It really is designed to get who you are. So for example my top money personality is called an accumulator and I’m an inner banker and I have this very tight close-knit relationship with money and _____ that could be like match-made in heaven, you know, great!
But there’s always the challenge, the shadow side and those of us that are strong accumulators can be so tightly controlled with money that it may mean we hesitate to invest in ourselves or we block ourselves from growing.
I know many years ago when I decided that I was going to start my own coaching business, I felt the calling. I believe I have the skills set and I knew I wanted to serve people. But as a strong accumulator to invest five figures in something that wasn’t a car or a house or my college education that was scary.
I remember walking up with my credit card in hand and I couldn’t even break stride and I just turned right around going, “Oh there’s no way, I’m putting this much on my credit card.” And I did some deep breathing. I was talking to myself and I said “No, I know I mean to serve people in a bigger and better way.” I walked up the second time. I love the person touched the credit card but I don’t even think _____ a life could have drifted out of my hand. I walked away a second time and I’m like “OK, Eleni what are you saying?”
And I talked to myself through it and I realized, if I didn’t invest in myself then I also wasn’t going to be able to reach the people that I wanted to help and serve. So I walked up the third time. I was able to release the credit card. I admit, I think I kind of like throw up a little in my mouth but _____, so it was a success. But now that I know how I am wired as an accumulator, I very consciously know when to invest and it’s not a matter of me throwing up in my mouth or getting so much anxiety that I can’t do it.
Andrea: OK, so I want to know a little bit more about…you don’t have to tell me exactly what it was you’re investing in but in general it was investing in yourself in your business and being able to sell more? What made that investment so attractive, enough that you would actually go so much against what was inside of you? I don’t know if that’s quite the right way to put it, but what was it?
Eleni Anastos: I completely appreciate that. Well, you mentioned teaching and education and I know I was born a teacher. I know that I was born to impact people in a positive way. But at that point in my life it was time for a shift to do it in a different venue, in a different manner. And coaching really resonated with me, doing personal coaching, working with people one-on-one and doing group programs. An educator, it was very important to me to get certifications, to get a proper background, if you will. Even though, I already know I had the skill set, kind of going back to the “I’m enough.”
I knew that I have a skill set for it, the raw material, if you will. But I also wanted to have the proper certification and training to make myself the best I could be to reach the people I was suppose to reach. Whenever I thought, “Well, if I don’t invest in myself, because as accumulators, we just love saving for the sake of saving.
We love seeing our bank accounts go higher, so the thought of putting money out there, again five figures that’s not a car or a house, it was very scary. It was very intimidating for me but I was looking to the future. I got myself to the point where I was making a decision from where I want it to be. So I knew if I didn’t invest in myself, I wasn’t going to get to where I wanted to be.
Andrea: OK, so for those of us who are interested in investing in ourselves, how do we know when it’s a good investment or not. Do you have any advice for that sort of question or scenario?
Eleni Anastos: Yes, because I have spoken with a lot of people that sometimes look at for example, “Oh I can’t take on that debt.” Debt has just a negative connotation from many people and I understand that, but it’s really looking at the difference. Because to me if you can be grateful for what it is, for example most home owners here in the US, you’re able to purchase a home. Not many people own the outright and they have taken on technically debt for that as an investment but it’s to make their life better in some way.
So if you can sit down and look at, where do I want to be personally and professionally? Is this going to help me get there versus am I spending an investing money just to fill a void, like feeling lonely or empty or back to the opposite of I’m not good enough. That really is worth looking at because I worked with a lot of people that have taken on debt in their mindset is completely different, not always the same.
Some people have a lot of shame and guilt around taking on debt, but they could possibly, you know when they were younger, who knows what they heard growing up or what they witnessed growing up, because we all have a money story we grew up with. And maybe they saw, you know, “You should never take on debt. You should only buy what you can pay off within the end of the month or something.” I’m not saying those are bad things, not at all. But it’s an individual decision to invest when you know that it’s going to elevate your life.
Andrea: I mean it’s like college. It’s like investing in college as well. And I know there’s plenty of people saying don’t take on debt to go college too, it’s just fine. But when you’re investing in yourself for your business or for essentially for financial gain in the future, that’s a little different than I guess like what you said to try to fill a void or that sort of thing.
I know some people do life coaching or they do coaching around health and wellness, I think that sometimes it’s harder if it’s not directly tied to money, the investment or reward isn’t directly tied to money, it’s harder for people to invest in something that doesn’t seem to look like it has the potential to pay them back or at least _____. So what should be considered when we’re looking at investing in something like a health program or other sorts of things that aren’t necessarily directly tied to a business?
Eleni Anastos: My first thought immediately goes to what’s the cost of not doing this? Like you just mentioned a health program, you know, if you want to seek out your guidance and counsel for yourself. If something is happening in your life, you’re unhealthy, you know you need some support accountability, whatever it is, to enhance yourself basically which everything is connected. You know one area of your life is out of alignment; eventually it’s going to affect all the other ones.
So when you look at yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, or financially; the idea is to have it all in alignment. So for me and when I work with others, regardless if it’s not directly you’re saying “Oh investing in this is not going to turn around and put money in my bank. But if you’re investing in something that is going to enhance your physical health, enhance your emotional health that’s going to make you better at everything else you do, right?
So the end result is yes, you will be attracting more abundance into your world and I think the bottom line is still impacted. I have a client right now, he’s absolutely brilliant, super high IQ, wonderful man, great integrity; but he was so professionally-driven and so business-driven. You know, 24/7 that’s all he focused on that his physical health is greatly suffering. And until he put the proper focus on that, I mean because the other areas stopped growing, professionally he kind of hit the wall because his physical health is taken a toll.
So, you know, it’s all connected. Eventually, it might not be an instantaneous thing so I think that’s why it’s easy to ignore.
Andrea: Yes, yes, it doesn’t feel it’s urgent. Like my husband, he’s a physical therapist and he likes to say that investing in something like that, investing in membership to the Y or a gym of some kind or personal trainer is way less expensive than a heart attack.
Eleni Anastos: Exactly!
Andrea: Both financially and emotionally.
Eleni Anastos: Yeah. I mean, what’s the cost of not investing in that whether, again, it’s a trainer or some kind of health program.
Andrea: Yeah. OK, so going back to the personalities, what are some of the different quadrants or I don’t know how it fits all into a scheme of, but what are some of the different kinds of personalities that are out there when it comes to money and why does that matter?
Eleni Anastos: It matters individually, and especially it matters if you’re in any significant relationship; whether it’s marriage, business, or close friendship, having the awareness. For example, you could be business partners or a married couple and you know that there’s some stress and friction between the two of you regarding money. That’s fairly common. But you don’t really know what’s at the roots of all of it and what’s causing it so that awareness makes the difference.
I mentioned that I’m the Accumulator that Inner Banker that has a really tight close-knit relationship with money. The opposite of an Accumulator would be a connector.
Andrea: Me!
Eleni Anastos: Yeah, so that’s the inner relationship creator and they just illuminate faith and optimism which is beautiful. And connectors generally don’t pay a lot of attention to money because that faith and optimism kind of gives them the freedom that the money is always going to be there.
Imagine if you put a connector and an accumulator together without the awareness, like a quick example if I go shopping as an accumulator, I look to the best deal always. I want the most banks for my buck. If I’m going to purchase and article or clothing, I will go to the clearance rack first. I could very least look at price tags before I try anything on.
I went shopping with a friend of mine who’s a true connector. She never looks at price tags. She doesn’t even know the stores have clearance racks, which is just fine, and she made purchases. Now, as an accumulator when I make purchases, I’m watching every item being wrung up. I’m paying attention to every number. I’m double checking their receipts before I sign.
My friend, the connector, just handed over her credit card, did not double check any numbers, didn’t listen to what they said. And again, it’s not that I’m right and she was wrong, not at all. But I was like clutching my chest wondering where the defibrillator was.
So imagine if you have an accumulator and a connector in business together or any close-knit relationship and you didn’t have the awareness, you could make each other crazy.
Andrea: Sure!
Eleni Anastos: And again, it’s not one that’s right and the other one was wrong. It’s just having the awareness so you can synthesize each other’s gifts and consciously navigate those challenges.
Andrea: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think my husband and I…I’m not sure if he’s an accumulator but that’s _____ for him. I think over the years, it’s been easy for me to sort of just let him deal with the money because he pays very close attention and then I don’t have to because I really don’t want to. But at the same time, I’ve recognized that as I started wanting to get the message out and I want to get in to this as well.
As I wanted to get the message out, I started to realize that money was playing a role. I didn’t wanted to but it did and it was playing a role and I was continuing to spend more and more to get the message out without thinking about it and thinking about how it was impacting that. And then it got to the point where I was asked to speak somewhere. People don’t realize how much time and effort you spend on a speech.
And I was asked to speak somewhere and I thought “Oh gosh, if I ask for this much, will they give me a little bit less than that?” I was just trying to figure out. My husband said to me, “How much time are you gonna spend on that?” And I thought, “Oh probably about a week’s worth of time.” And I would have a babysitter for my kids because it was summer time and they were home and they were actually little then.
He helped me see realistically how much money we were going to be investing, and me, giving a speech for somebody else. And then it became a very eye-opening about “Oh my goodness, this is expensive for us.” It’s too much for me to ask from my family if I don’t ask the appropriate amount for speaking for an hour.
So when that happens, it was just this really big eye-opener for me and I needed to own the fact that the time that I’m spending and the effort that I’m offering is not all just for free. It can’t be.
Eleni Anastos: That story, I so appreciate you sharing that.
Andrea: And what’s funny actually, let me just throw in the very tail end of that story. Then the people asked me “What would you charge if you didn’t even know me?” And I said a number and they said “OK” and I did it and I did it for that amount and that was just like boom, like this huge eye-opener.
Eleni Anastos: Yay, that’s amazing! I love it. It’s beautiful. How did you feel? I’m curious when you just said that amount?
Andrea: Well, I put it in a proposal and explained. I didn’t explain why. I didn’t justify the figure, I just kind of really explained why it would be a good fit and I felt a little overwhelmed about doing it but at the same time, I felt good about it. And then actually when I gave the talk, it was just for a few people. It was for a dozen of people, educators actually. They handed me a check and they felt good. I received the check and I felt good and I thought “This is a good thing. There’s nothing wrong with this, me receiving this money. It’s a lot of money but I invested a lot and it’s OK. So, overall, it was just this really great learning experience for me.
Eleni Anastos: That’s beautiful because you’re truly owning your own worth and placing a proper value on your skills, on your expertise, and what you brought to them as an individual. That’s great, especially you know you get to decide “Is the juice worth the squeeze?” You get to decide what your time is worth.
Now, there may be sometimes, especially where speaking is concerned or actually in anything else. You may make a decision to do something that upfront you’re not highly compensated for but you have the potential to gain influence and gain clients from that scenario. That’s all good too but the point is making a conscious decision not again thinking “Oh I’ve got to low ball this, I’ve got to play small” just to get in the door then we know you’re never really getting in anywhere.
Andrea: OK, so what is your take on when somebody has a message whether they have a job with a company or there’s somebody who is an entrepreneur or at least think that they’re a writer. If you have a message inside, why should they care about money? How should we approach it as somebody with a message?
Eleni Anastos: Yes, because I have heard countless people say, it’s not about the money. Money doesn’t matter. I think we all have heard that somewhere or we verbalized it ourselves. But I want to go back to the reality that money is a part of your every day existence regardless of where you live or what your current life is, money is going to be a part of your every day existence.
So I think it speaks to the mindset of “I should just do this. I should just be giving. I should just be sharing,” almost as if that person doesn’t have a right to be compensated for sharing their gifts with the world. I think that could be a very dangerous mindset, a very slippery slope how we’re talking to ourselves.
Andrea: And you mentioned before this idea of playing it small.
Eleni Anastos: Yes!
Andrea: And that is definitely something that I can relate too. I mean, I went through a period of like “Oh my goodness, if I don’t start charging money, I’m just going to stay here. I’m kind of stuck in this little pool when I feel like I belong in a bigger pool.” And so yeah, playing it small seems like a big part of it too.
Eleni Anastos: Yes and how you speak to yourself, is it a low-value statement, is it a high-value statement? For example, if you say that “Oh no one’s gonna pay me for what I offer,” obviously that’s very disempowering. It’s a low-value statement. But I always want people to ask instead of going right to the negative, “no one’s ever going to pay me for my skill,” you know, what if they could? What if you could get the money that you want? What if your clients will pay you for your skill, for your expertise?
Napoleon Hill’s iconic book was Think and Grow Rich. You can’t say, _____ and grow rich, instead Think and Grow Rich. It may sound simplistic in nature but it really is really a concerted conscious effort on how we’re talking to ourselves and to place a value on ourselves. Because those of us that are very mission driven and want people to live their best lives, is there anything more that we want for people to be wildly successful however they choose to define that.
Andrea: You know, I guess I’m just sharing all kinds of my personal experience here but I think that’s another piece of what was hard for me when I was starting out. What’s been frustrating to me probably on my life is that I don’t want to go in inch deep and a mile wide. I’d much prefer to go an inch wide and 60,000 miles deep.
What I was realizing every time was that I could only literally, I could only go so deep because they were only invested so deep and they weren’t ready to go further until they were ready to put money behind it. And I was like “I just have to be like this.” I don’t necessarily want to be that you need to spend more money to have more transformation. But at the same time, it’s kind of like that sometimes because people aren’t ready to totally throw their whole selves in until they put their money in.
Eleni Anastos: Yes, and it’s backing that up and looking at it again, this is an investment. I don’t want to spend that money, but that’s a different mindset from investing in yourself and then what you’re demonstrating for other people is not just like I had a client. She was absolutely lovely, creative, and a beautiful soul but so tightly around with money, so scared to even talk about money. She could barely state her fees to clients and practically apologize for them.
In fact a couple of times, she asked for permission like “Is that OK?” She’d state her fees, “Is that OK?” So that completely was undervaluing herself and she was giving them all the power. I want people to be in the driver seat for themselves. When she realized through our work together that “Oh, you know, it was from mom that constantly said, you just get whatever you can get. Get whatever you can get, it’s OK. Some money is better than no money. Bread is better than no bread.”
I mean, no disrespect to her mom because I’m sure she meant with the best possible intentions that you what you can do to earn a living. I think that’s a great advice on many levels. For my client, being that creative soulful entrepreneur, she realized that she was not going to be able to impact and influence people if she just keeps trying to “Oh let me just get somebody in the door, whatever it is. I’ll low ball it. I’ll just give this away.” Again, going back to the _____ and playing small.
When she was able to shift her mindset and she kind of adapted this new paradigm that money really is not evil. That’s one of the things that I find amazing all the limiting beliefs that are still out there, “You know money is evil. There’s never enough to go around.” In reality, money is just is, it’s neutral like anything in our world; we apply the meaning into it. It’s just energy, you know, an exchange of one service for another.
I think when people can wrap their heads around that money is really is the energy and exchanging one service for another that put some back in the driver seat where they feel they have control of money and therefore more control in their life. That’s what I want to see for people to not feel like money is controlling their life. How many decisions have we made based on money or lack of money? That gives money the power. I do want people to take their power back.
Andrea: OK, this is great. What would you leave us with? You know this person who, they care about other people and they’re not sure what they want their relationship with money to be but they know it’s not quite at the place where it probably or should be in order for them to be free from, I guess like you’re saying the power of money over them instead of them having power. What advice would you give that message-driven leader? What do you want to leave with them today?
Eleni Anastos: I’d like them to think about what they want most for the people they want to serve. It’s almost always you want them to feel empowered and you want them to feel capable of doing anything they want to do regardless of what you’re teaching them or showing them in your mission. And the best way to do that is to do it for yourself to be that role model, to demonstrate, “This is what’s possible. This is what it’s look like. This is how you can live when you’re on your own worth.” “If we don’t start with us, how can we demonstrate to others that we want to serve what’s possible?”
Andrea: Oh so true! Alright, well thank you so much, Eleni, for being here today. How can people get a hold of you and even take that assessment that you’re sharing with me.
Eleni Anastos: Yes, thank you for asking. The website is businessinsightsnow.com and the assessment on there is called, Crack Your Money Code. So Business Insights Now and Crack Your Money Code. It will take you maybe 10 minutes to take and again it’s painless. You can’t study, you can’t get anything wrong and I am happy to engage and discuss results with folks that want to take it. So you can reach out to me through the website with any questions.
Andrea: Awesome! OK, we will link to that in the show notes and I just thank you again for being here today and for helping the world to get used to this idea of money and being comfortable with it in the way that we interact with it and our relationship with money, Eleni. Have a great day!
Alicia Couri is a dynamic empowerment speaker, author, and personal branding expert who shares her message of how overcoming low self-esteem and lack of self-confidence has created massive opportunities that influence, transform, and impact lives.
Alicia’s books focus on self-development and self-care and, while simple, are incredibly profound. Her mission is to influence, educate, inspire, and entertain with audacious confidence and to help her clients do the same with a strong personal brand.
In this episode, Alicia discusses why the core of her message is focused around confidence, the difference it makes for the world if people are confident, how to gain confidence, why we shouldn’t look for external validation to boost our confidence, the three P’s of personal branding, and so much more!
Play here (the red triangle below), oniTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn Radio(Amazon Alexa) or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Transcript
Hey, hey! It’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast.
Today, I have with me, Alicia Couri, a dynamic empowerment speaker, author, and personal branding expert who shares her message of how overcoming low self-esteem and lack of self-confidence has creative massive opportunities that influence, transform, and impact lives.
I personally benefited from Alicia’s abilities with personal branding especially in the area of hair and makeup recently at an event that I spoke at. So I’m excited to share her with you today. Her books focused on self-development and self-care and they’re really fun reads and they’re both very simple but profound. Her mission is to influence, educate, inspire, and entertain with audacious confidence and she helps her clients do so with a strong personal brand.
Alicia how wonderful is it to have you here today on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Alicia Couri: Thank you so much! I really appreciate how you introduced me. That is so wonderful and I appreciated the opportunity to work with you recently. Thank you so much!
Andrea: Yes. It was so fun. You were a delight. You were very encouraging and I liked how I looked so that’s so great too.
Alicia Couri: That turned out great, yes.
Andrea: It’s nice to know that somebody professional has done the hair and makeup thing before you go up onstage.
Alicia Couri: It makes a world of difference. It certainly does.
[Off-topic conversation]
Andrea: So Alicia what is the core of your message? Tell us about what drives you in your message?
Alicia Couri: In the introduction, you talked about me overcoming low self-esteem and low self-worth. So the core of my message is really focused around confidence because everything that we do starts with being confident and it starts with having that confidence within yourself. So for me that is such a staple and such a vital part of life so that is really what drives me.
Andrea: What is it about that then? I want to hear about your story then because it sounds like you have a pretty good story about why this is personal for you?
Alicia Couri: Absolutely! You know, I was born in Trinidad and I grew up in Australia.
Andrea: You grew up in Australia but you don’t have n accent now?
Alicia Couri: OK, so that’s part of my story.
Andrea: OK, good. I want to hear it.
Alicia Couri: That’s also part of my story, because I was one of three black children in an entire school of 700 to 800 kids and so…
Andrea: Wow that’s a lot.
Alicia Couri: Yes, it was a really big school because it went from a kindergarten all the way through 12th grade.
Andrea: And such a small percentage.
Alicia Couri: And it was just one was a native Aborigines and other was my sister. So it was three of us in the whole school that I’ve ever seen that were dark, at least as dark as we were. So I got a lot of stares. I got a lot of questions and as a 5 year old getting questions about your skin color and where you from and your accent and why do you talk like this and all of that, it was intimidating because I didn’t have the answers. I didn’t know why my skin was different color than theirs. I couldn’t answer that question intelligently, and so it has caused me as a rambunctious, really outspoken, outgoing little girl to become shy and kind of introverted.
It completely changed my personality. It changed how I was. I wanted to blend in. I didn’t want to standout. I wanted to be just like everybody else but the minute I look at myself, I knew I was like everybody else that I was around. So later on in life, I realized that what impact that had on me, because when you’re in it you don’t realize what’s happening, but as I tried to step out and do things, I would realize that I would shy away and I would want to be in the background and I wouldn’t step up and I wouldn’t speak up and I couldn’t figure out why wouldn’t do these things.
So later on when we moved back to Trinidad, I looked like everybody else so I can fit in but the minute I open my mouth to speak, heads would turn again and people start asking questions and they start wanting to know “Can you say these words? Can you say that word?” So I started feeling self-conscious about even speaking.
Andrea: Because of the Australian accent at that point?
Alicia Couri: Because of the Australian accent. Yeah, a heavy thick Australian accent from this little girl. So my way of fixing that was “Let me just speak in a way that is clear and enunciate and so that people cannot identify me by an accent anymore.” So that’s kind of why I speak the way I speak because I just didn’t want people to ask me where I was from and now I got it all the time because nobody could picture where I’m from. I always hear say “Hey, where you from. I detect something but I don’t know what it is.”
Andrea: Yes, interesting.
Alicia Couri: So yeah that’s kind of my story and so that’s why I so strongly believe in confidence because it erodes who you are if you don’t have it. It erodes your worth, your value, your self-esteem, your ability to really go out and shine at the highest level that you can possibly achieve. So that’s what I want for people to be able to realize.
Andrea: OK, so what difference does it make then in the world if people are confident? Why does this matter?
Alicia Couri: Well, it matters, especially if you’re in business, it matters how you value yourself. It matters how you show up. It matters how you perform. For instance, we love to watch world events and Dancing with the Stars and all these really great reality shows that are based in competition, say like Dancing with the Stars for instance.
When you put someone out of their elements and so you take someone who has never done ballroom dancing before and now you’re training them to ballroom dance and you see the process that they go through and how the lack of confidence at the beginning really holds them back from giving it their all to when they reached probably the semi finals or the finals and then you see that change in not just the way they danced but the attitude that they have when they danced because now they’ve got it. Now, they’re confident in their steps that they’re taking and they’re no longer holding back.
So when you live in a world that you’re not holding back, that you’re actually giving it your all because now you’re sure of what you’re doing, you’re confident in what you do, it makes not just a difference in your performance but it makes a difference in your clients and customers in how they receive it. They are able to celebrate it with you when you do a great job. They’re able to be the beneficiaries of that great job, so I think it’s really important.
Andrea: And it totally levels up what you can offer it seems like.
Alicia Couri: Absolutely, absolutely!
Andrea: Yeah. OK, so how does someone become confident? I’ve asked a lot of people on this podcast you know, “Have you always been confident, because they come across so confident. And they’re like “Oh no,” and they kind of go back and then, “No way, I’ve always been confident.” But I think that a lot of people are sitting there looking at people who looked confident and saying, “Gosh, I wish I was like them but I don’t really know how to get from here to there.” So what do you tell people about that?
Alicia Couri: So that is a really great question because so many times, people think there’s a formula to getting confident but we really have to start looking back at why you think you’re not confident or why you believe you can’t do this because sometimes it’s a universal belief that some people are born confident and others aren’t. And so if you have bought into that universal belief then you’re always going to think that you can never be confident enough.
So think back to really what that seed that was planted that made you feel like either you couldn’t do something or you weren’t confident enough or you didn’t have enough skills, education, or whatever it is. So for me when I looked back at my childhood and I recognized that it was that time in my life when I felt that I wanted to disappear then I can kind of shift back and I can say “Well, you know, that was my reality as a child, that’s not my reality now.” So I don’t have to bring that baggage with me everywhere I go. I am a choice now that I’m aware that that is where I came from, I am now a choice.
I think we even spoke about this when I was doing your hair and makeup that we can choose in this moment now how we are going to be. So that kind of can get you out this idea that you think that you’re not confident enough or you think that you can’t do a good job is recognizing where it came from, being able to now make a different decision because now you’re a choice because you’re aware of where it came from and then just choosing it. The other thing is recognizing where your skills, your talents, your gifts, and your abilities lie.
Andrea: So big!
Alicia Couri: Yeah, your talents, your abilities, your gifts, and your skills.
Andrea: I like that tags.
Alicia Couri: Yeah, your tags.
Andrea: That’s good.
Alicia Couri: If you know where your tags are, if you know that I am really good at this that is where you’ll shine and that is where you’ll be confident. When I started doing makeup, it was a passion of mine. It was something I love doing but I didn’t have all the skills yet, but because I love and I enjoy doing it and I was encouraged by the people around me that I was doing a good job, I got more training and more training until I felt that “You know what, I believe that in any situation, I can make this work.”
So I don’t need to know what everybody looks like before they sit in my chair because I understand now, you know face shape. There’s a certain understanding of the technical aspect of it but I also know that I have a natural gift for it. So I rely on my natural gift and I rely on the skill set that I’ve developed. And so I’m confident when someone sits on my chair that I can do a good job for them.
Andrea: I really like that you’re pulling up both the internal belief and where it came from as well as the need to develop the skills and to sort of level up where you’re already gifted because I think it’s definitely not enough to just say that I’m more confident. Confidence has to be grounded in something…
Alicia Couri: …in something, exactly.
Andrea: Yeah, yeah.
Alicia Couri: Absolutely, absolutely. Too many times, especially young women looked externally at everything. You know, beauty was a big, big thing for me because I spent a long time not believing in my own beauty, again came from my childhood and not seeing a representation of what I look like as beauty in the world in the 70’s. There weren’t really people on TV or in magazines that were portrayed with my skin color, my nose, or my lips. It was more, blonde, blue eyed, light skinned.
My concept of beauty was cute because of my surroundings and I had to figure out what beauty really meant to me. So when so many young girls are looking externally for validation and they’re looking externally for things to identify with, it erodes their confidence because they no longer have confidence in themselves but they’re trying to be like the image that they see out there. And it’s really important to develop your own concept of beauty and confidence and all those things for yourself and then like you said, make it tangible and then match the inside of what you’re now believing for yourself and then make it tangible.
If you’re going to use, for instance makeup, don’t make up yourself to hide yourself or try to alter your features to look like something else, but use makeup to enhance. Say, “You know what, I love my lips and I am going to put on this bright red lipstick because it makes my lips just look juicy and beautiful.” So you know, instead of underlying your lips so that they look thin and more acceptable. So trying to build and develop confidence in yourself comes from the internal but also you have to add the external to it but don’t add the external as a way to mask, hide, or alter who you are.
Andrea: Hmmm. OK, so I love that you just said that we need to find that within instead of basing it on other people and getting approval and basing our idea of beauty or whatever _____ that we’re trying to set for ourselves basing that on somebody else or something else outside of ourselves. But how do we do that, really? I think it’s hard to get those images or those expectations out of your head and kind of comeback inside to yourself to find those answers.
So, Alicia, how did that work for you? Let’s use beauty as an example because you’ve used it. So how did you decide what was beautiful for you and what made you beautiful when you didn’t have representation in media and you didn’t see people like yourself out there _____ this beautiful? How did you find that for yourself and how do you recommend that other people look within to find some of those things?
Alicia Couri: It took me a long time! It certainly did because I did not like looking in the mirror. I did not like my picture taken and if you look at my Facebook page or my Instagram page, you would never believe that in a million years because there are selfies everywhere, but honestly, I was hiding myself. I would hide myself and people would say, “Oh you so pretty.” “You’re so beautiful.” I couldn’t receive it. I couldn’t accept it. I would just politely say, “Oh thank you,” but inside I was like “What are they looking at?”
But it took me a while to kind of make the shift and so what shifted for me was to start seeing myself differently. I had to actually start looking differently at myself in the mirror. I had to take pictures of myself and stop criticizing myself and putting myself down and looking for the beauty. When I would look in the mirror, instead of saying, you know, pimples or oh my gosh, my nose is this way, you know, just finding everything that was wrong, I looked in the mirror and I thought, “You know what, you’re not too shabby today.” You know, I have _____ a little bit of a compliment, “Not too shabby today.”
And then I started taking pictures of myself which is something I really didn’t do. When I started taking more and more pictures, I started to see myself differently because I looked at myself objectively as if it wasn’t me I was looking at. I thought, “If I didn’t know this person would I think she was pretty?” And I would look at each picture saying, “Yes, she’s got beautiful eyes and she’s got red lips. Her face shape is very good.” You know, just start picking little things and looking at different features and saying, “Yeah, she’s kind of pretty.”
Andrea: Yeah and just are ____, I mean, you’re gorgeous. So yeah, I can’t even imagine not realizing that, but it’s so interesting that you took the time and energy and effort to do that because I think a lot of us don’t put the extra time and energy into that kind of reflection and to that kind of awareness. You know awareness of taking the picture and then reflecting on it and saying, “OK, what do I see here?”
I think we can do the same thing with other areas of our lives that we’re trying to grow in and or become more confident in but yeah, we don’t. It takes so much effort or decision or permission or something to actually do that. So what was inside of you or what’s outside of you, I don’t know what kind of got you to that point where you said “You know what, this is worth the time, this is worth the effort to take my pictures and start thinking about this and overcome this issue from myself?”
Alicia Couri: I was just tired of not feeling great about myself because there are so many people always telling you something about you that you’re _____ and all the stuff and you don’t see it then what are you missing? So I thought and really wondering, why am I always shying away from the spotlight? When people say, “Oh my gosh you make a great speaker.” “Oh my gosh you will do great camera work.” And I kept denying that from myself and I finally said, “Why do I keep denying my potential just because I don’t see it?” But obviously, other people were seeing it.
So let me stop denying my potential. Let me stop denying and saying, “Oh no, I’m trying to be polite or trying to be humble.” You know, people think that’s humility when it’s false humility. It’s really pride. It’s not really humility, “Oh no, not me.” So I really started looking at that and saying “Well, maybe I can speak in front of people and what will it take for me to stand in front of an audience and deliver a message without falling apart.”
And I thought, “You know, if I stand in front of an audience and I was nervous, what’s wrong with that?” And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong with that. Nothing was wrong with that you’re standing in front of people. OK, so my voice shakes, so if my voice shakes what’s wrong with that? Will people make fun of me? Maybe, but will I get my message across? Yes! OK, so just start trying, just start doing and the more I did, the more stepped out and I did, the more confident I became and the more proficient I became and the less judgmental I became of myself and the less critical of myself.
So I didn’t do it right. I didn’t do it perfectly and I think that is another thing that does not go well with confidence is perfection, because if you think that you have to do everything perfect, and if you think that you cannot mess up or make a mistake then you will never get to that confident place in yourself because you’re always going to be afraid you’re going to mess up.
So I didn’t do it perfectly. You know, I have my radio show and sometimes, I look back at the radio show and I think “What was I thinking?” “Oh my gosh.” But people comments and they say how much fun they had listening to the show or how much they gained and as a matter of fact my last guest, she was talking about the opportunity for it’s about everyone else instead of about you. So when you start thinking what I have to share can be a value to someone else then you think less of yourself and all the things that you think are wrong with you because now you are in service to someone else.
Andrea: Yes. Yes, love that! One of my recent guests, Neen James, said, it’s hard to be nervous when you’re standing in service. That’s the way she puts it.
Alicia Couri: Right.
Andrea: And I remember distinctly a point in my life when I was getting up to speak and I thought, “I got to love these people more than I fear them, more than I fear their judgment, more than I fear messing up in front of them. I got to love them more than that because if I do, I’ll be OK.”
Alicia Couri: Right and all the ums and the ahs and you know it happens and that shows we figure real. You know, there are some speaking programs that are trying to cut all those things out of you, kind of try to slap it out of you and I don’t necessarily feel that it needs to be taken completely out of you. Yes, it can be curtailed a little bit so that your message isn’t modeled in the umhs and the umhs and the umhs.
So there is a balance that some of those things can be removed a little bit but you don’t want to be robotic. You don’t want to be too stiff when you’re delivering something to someone, when you’re in service to someone because you want them to be able to feel you. You want them to able to experience what you’re sharing with them in that moment and if you slip off here and there then it’s fine, at least that’s my philosophy.
Andrea: I totally agree with you because I think that people get so obsessed with that sort of thing that they do, they lose their voice. They lose who they really are in that like you’re talking about. People can’t really feel me if I’m there trying to do a perfect job because I’m not truly connecting with them. I’m not connected to my message because I’m so worried about it.
Alicia Couri: Oh yeah that can really mess with your confidence too because if you don’t have it down exactly correct, perfectly then you don’t feel as powerful in that moment.
Andrea: Oh yeah.
Alicia Couri: But if you can let it go and just say whatever it is it is and I have a strong message inside of me and I’m just going to let it out, not that rehearsal isn’t important. Rehearsal is a very important part of it but don’t get so locked into your script that you’re not making that connection.
Andrea: Yeah and even your story or your message in general, even if you’re having a conversation with somebody if you’re not connected to it in that moment. If you’re trying to make sure that it doesn’t get lost, I think that’s something that is definitely even frustrating for me at times. If I’m not totally clear in what I’m trying to say, I get flustered.
Alicia Couri: A little tongue tied.
Andrea: Yeah and then I used to just give up and that doesn’t do anything for the person that you’re talking to and it definitely doesn’t serve your message at all. So having a sense of what it is ahead of time is helpful.
Alicia, you also talked about personal branding and I remember when you’re doing my hair and makeup, I asked you, “what is your perspective?” What is your points of view on personal branding and would you share that with us now because that is something that we talked about a lot here and I think it definitely ties into awareness of who we are so that we can build that confidence. So what is your point of view on personal branding?
Alicia Couri: I talk about the three P’s to personal branding; Posture, which is about building a solid core and the core, of the C in core is confidence so that is your foundation to your posture, so posture. And in building your core, we have confidence how you’re oriented which is what you believe and what you value. We talk about your results and your relevance to your industry and what your education and your experiences have been. So that is core, you know, anytime I talk to anybody about core, those are the things that I’m referring to.
And then Presentation that’s the second P, which is so important. When it comes to presentation, most people when they hear about branding, they think about presentation. They think about your logo and your colors and your image and those things. What is your website look like? What is your business card look like? So that is part of presentation but an important part of presentation as well is your performance, how do you actually provide your service to people and your story, your copy, all those things that represent you in your presentation.
So we want to make sure that everything in that part of your brand and the presentation of your brand is consistent. You have a consistent message and you have a consistent look about you, not a cut and paste. It’s not like your wearing the same thing all the time. You know, every time people see, like “Yeah, I’m in my brand,” but everything has the same feel. Everything has the same flow. If you have a particular font that you use for your brand, you’re always using that font so that people get used to seeing that in your brand, people get used to seeing your brand colors in your presentation.
Most of the time when I speak, people know I’m going to show up in red. When I’m on camera, they know I’m going to show up in red. So people just come to know me in red and in red lipstick, so they have just kind of embrace that part of my brand.
Andrea: Which is awesome because it’s like the opposite of holding back.
Alicia Couri: Exactly!
Andrea: It’s like you’re saying, “Now, I’m standing out and I’m not afraid to stand out, here I am!” I love that!
Alicia Couri: It’s so funny, I did a media interview sometime ago, not too long ago and one of the notes that they sent me, the producers, “Don’t wear bright red.” And I’m like “She don’t know who she’s talking to.” Of course, I’m gonna wear red. Are you kidding me?” So you just have to fix the lights and the tone and everything when I get there.
You know, some people says, better to ask _____ information. But I did actually send them a picture of my dress ahead of time because I want to be respectful and they said, “No that’s fine. It will work.” Even though they said, I guess people wear this really crazy bright red that mess with the camera.
But anyway, when I have instructions like that, I try to be respectful of it and I send them ahead of time and if they really say no then I might tone down the shade or wear something different. It’s not a big deal to me, but most of the time, yeah I’m in red.
So then the last P is Positioning and I think sometimes we don’t really pay attention to how we’re positioned in our brand. Are we speaking to the right people? Are we in front of our target audience? Are we positioning ourselves as an authority? Do we have these pieces in our marketing like media? I need to get some of this myself some articles. I need to do more writing and get some more articles in magazines. And how you’re positioning yourself to be considered the expert in what you do, to be considered a leader in your industry, to be considered a thought leader. Are you really positioning yourself correctly? Another thing that people don’t really think about in positioning is who is coaching and mentoring you. What sort of groups do you belong to? Are you positioned correctly in those things?
So those are my three P’s for branding and that’s how I look at it. I know there are so many people who do branding out there. Everybody has their own unique point of view on how you should brand yourself. So again, position yourself correctly, find the right person that you believe can develop your brand for your and make it stand out.
Andrea: So how does, Positioning, Posture, and Presentation; how did these things relate to your core message of confidence then?
Alice Couri: Well, branding relates to my core message of confidence as a whole because finding your unique quality, finding what’s unique about you, what stands out about you and then being able to highlight that and having the opportunity to really to really allow that to shine is it can only come when you’re confident within yourself because then you’ll keep holding something back, like red for instance.
I did not even think red was my color because for two years, my graphic artist and I were trying to figure out my logo. We’re trying to figure out my colors and everything that I came up with, she kept telling me, “Nope, I don’t see that. Nope that’s not right.” I wasn’t feeling it in and she wasn’t feeling it.
And then I did a photo shoot that was really just impromptu. I really wasn’t expecting to do it so I looked in my closet. I pulled out a top that was red. I pulled out a dress that was gold that I had never worn and I said, “OK, I’m going to do this photo shoot and I’m bringing these three things with me, a black shirt, a red top, and this gold dress.
When I finished the photo shoot, I got the pictures, that red and that gold were just like, you know like when the light shines down from heaven and when I looked at the _____. So it was just really by chance that I found those colors for my brand. Sometimes, it will happen that way. And because I had ran from red so much in my life, the only reason I picked that red top was because of the cuts. I’m a stylist so I help people with their wardrobe. It’s part of their brand. I do a lot of image styling for people’s hair and makeup and wardrobe.
So the cuts of that top was really why I grabbed it because it was a very a flattering cut, not for the color. So it’s very interesting that the color was the thing that actually stood out more in those photos and that’s what made people comment more.
Andrea: Alright, Alicia, so what of all from today’s talk, what do you really hope that the listener would take with them this week? What nugget do you want them to remember?
Alicia Couri: Oh that is so great! What I really want people to remember is that any point in time, they can choose to be more confident. They can choose who they are in that moment. You can make a decision to, let’s say climb Mount Everest for instance, that would not be me but let’s say you make a decision, “By next year this time, I want to climb Mount Everest.” You can choose to not train and then last minute try to get yourself up to _____ or you can choose to do a little bit everyday to get to that goal.
But if you choose to do something every day to get to that goal, there’s a second decision that you have to make and you have to choose who you are being in that moment. Are you going to be the person that procrastinates or you’re going to be the person that gets up and continues to march towards your goal? Are you going to show up ready to work and give your best and your all, or are you going to phone it in?
You have the ability to make those decisions, to choose that action and then choose who you’re going to be in that moment. When I was cast as a lead in a movie that’s filming down here, I thought to myself, I could choose to read the part and acted out the way I think it should be acted out or I can choose to actually put myself in this character and live this character and give a performance that is not comfortable for me, Alicia, but will fit and suit this character.
So I had to make that decision because I had never acted before and I’m doing this movie. I’m casting this movie and I’m like “Well, how do I do this?” I had to make the decision who am I going to be. Am I going to be the person that they say, “Oh yeah, nice job,” and then cast somebody else or am I really going to turn into an actor and become this person?
And so that’s kind of the job that you have when you’re building your confidence, “Am I just going to phone it in and act the part or am really going to become who I meant to be? Am going to become this person that I visualize that is awesome, great, wonderful, and everybody loves and it’s totally authentic to you because it’s coming from within from inside of you from within and it’s not coming from anything external. So you choose who’s going to bubble up from me inside of you and show up on the outside.
Andrea: Hmm love it! OK, Alicia, I know that you have a free download for people, so can you tell us a about that?
Alicia Couri: Absolutely! It’s my first book. Again, I didn’t know that I was going to write a book. It’s the first book that I wrote and it’s called Your SignatureStyle: Unlocking the Confidence, Style and Influence of the Savvy CEO, and also talked a little bit about my journey that I mentioned earlier from Australia and some of those struggles.
One of the most impactful chapters in that book is chapter 2 when we talked about overcoming fears and how to release step out and not consider the fear but do it, do what you need to do and do it in a very great way. So I love chapter 2, so hopefully, you will enjoy chapter 2 as well.
Andrea: How can we find that? We’ll definitely link to it in a show notes, is that sufficient or do you want to give out another link?
Alicia Couri: You can link it in the show notes and they can also go to my website, it’s www.aliciacouri.com and there will be a link to the book. I know it’s available for a limited time since it is on Amazon. I do make it available anytime I do a radio show, television show, or podcast. I make it available for the listeners and the viewers.
So if you can go to my website, the download will be there but it will only be there for a limited time.
Andrea: Gotcha! OK and we’ll have it in the show notes at least for that limited time.
Alright, thank you so much, Alicia. It was so great to _____ with you today and hear how you came into your own voice of influence. We have so much in common and I’m just really grateful and I want to thank you for your voice of influence in the world.
Alicia Couri: Thank you! There are two things I want to say about what you just said, I know we’re _____, but one is that it’s so important when start sharing your voice and your story how much you realize how many people can relate to what you’re going through and so anytime you have an opportunity to share your journey with someone and how you’ve overcome and some of the tools and tips that you have, it is a value because they’re also going through some of that and they can benefit from what you have to share.
I’m also launching a podcast soon, so look out for that.
Andrea: Yes that’s right and once that’s all ready to go and everything, we’ll definitely put that in the show notes as well.
Alicia Couri: Perfect!
Andrea: Awesome and yes good luck with that. That’s exciting. Alright, thank you so much, Alicia, and we’ll see you soon.
