Dr. Nancy Gordon is a Chairperson and Associate Professor of the Graduate Department of Counseling, Leadership and Expressive Arts at Salve Regina University in Newport, Rhode Island where she has a full-time teaching load. Dr. Gordon is also a Program Director for the Holistic Graduate Programs with oversight of several cross-disciplinary programs including an innovative MA and Holistic Leadership. Her most recent published work is entitled Women and Leadership: An Integrative Focus on Equality. Dr. Gordon received her Doctor of Education from Harvard University. In this episode, Dr. Gordon discusses the main purpose that weaves it’s way into all of her work, what it means to be human, the importance of integrating humanity into our work, her simple and effective tip to help you be present in the moment, why people of influence need to focus on making sure those around them are fully present, the power of utilizing storytelling to help those around you focus, why trust is crucial when it comes to collaboration, the difference between management skills and leadership skills, the details of her upcoming leadership summit, and more!
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Transcript
Hey, Hey! It’s Andrea and welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. This is where we explore the intersection of human dynamics, communication, and service. If you’re interested in growing your own voice of influence or the influence of those on your team, you can check us out at voiceofinfluence.net and just give us a shout out. We’d love to talk.
Today, I have with me Dr. Nancy Gordon. Nancy is a Chairperson and Associate Professor of the Graduate Department of Counseling, Leadership and Expressive Arts at Salve Regina University in Newport, Rhode Island where she has a full time teaching load. Dr. Gordon is a Program Director for the Holistic Graduate Programs with oversight of several cross-disciplinary programs including an innovative MA and Holistic Leadership. Her most recent published work is entitled Women and Leadership: An Integrative Focus on Equality. Dr. Gordon received her Doctor of Education from Harvard University.
Andrea: Dr. Gordon. It is wonderful to have you here with me on the Voice of Influence podcast.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Thank you. I’m very happy to be here.
Andrea: So you have a lot of different things that you do. So, I’m kind of curious, what do you consider out of all those different roles and your experience is there any kind of message or purpose that seems to be running throughout what you do and who you are?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yes. I think my purpose has always been to help people find their own selves, their purpose, their voice, their mission, their ability to function effectively in whatever it is they’re interested in doing. And in many ways, that’s been a lot of my life, my career, my interest in education and learning.
Andrea: Hmm. And is there a reason for that, do you think? I mean, is this a personal thing for you?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I think it started out that way. My background, I’ve always been interested in several things, in large system thinking. I have a BA and MA in International Relations and then I end up in Rhode Island where that is not really a _____ for a career and began to work with all kinds of educational programs. One specifically was with corrections and another was with urban adults wanting to come back to school and get degrees to further their own learning and education. And I was always very interested in how education is a social change force, so that kind of guided me for many, many years. And I went back to school to try to figure out how to use the ideas I had in education at a larger level and then found a voice in teaching. As I came out of my doctoral program, I began to do the usual that some of us do go from one adjunct course to another. But what I discovered is I really love teaching and I hadn’t known that. So, in many ways I came accidentally to that part of what I’m doing now. And then I came to Salve Regina University, which is a sister of Mercy University dedicated to justice and mercy. And so I found a way to use that in the programs that I’m now running because they really are, in many ways, formative around those ideas and teaching people how to integrate the best of human, our humanity basically, into what they’re doing. I don’t know if that…does that answer you?
Andrea: Yeah, I would love that.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: That was very long winded.
Andrea: No, no. I love that. So integrating our humanity into what we’re doing. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yeah, what it means to be human. Sometimes, I think we’ve lost that. What does it mean to be human and how does that apply? I am personally very interested in how things integrate and lineup. You named my article about a focus on equality for women, I’m interested in how the body, mind and spirit are integrated into the work we do, which is why I found a perfect home itself at Salve Regina University because that’s pretty much the background foundation of all the programs we run here. How to integrate body, mind, and spirit, what’s a holistic approach? And holism has become sort of a jargonized term now. And if you think about it as integrative, how do we integrate all aspects of our lives, our work, our families, our hobbies, our communities? How does that all play a part in the way that we function in the world? And how do we see that?
Andrea: Let’s go back first to…tell me this. What does it mean to be human?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Ah, that is the question, isn’t it?
Andrea: Hmm.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I think it means, first of all, finding a way to be present in the world so that you’re not constantly reacting and judging what’s going on. So, being human means to have compassion for folks that are different from ourselves, for folks that may not have had some of the same advantages or are more disadvantaged for being able to step back and live in a world of our own presence, our own voice influencing that more towards what could be improved. What is important also I think from where I sit is that we are all human beings living on one planet, and I think we have forgotten that it doesn’t matter where we’re living, but that we are brothers and sisters in humanity. And so that’s another thing that I’m very interested in helping all of us see.
Andrea: Yeah. I think that idea of being present is, you know, in some ways it feels like, well, yeah, of course we need to be present, we’re present. But being present in that moment and participating almost in that moment rather than being critical and looking at everything through analytical eyes is a really interesting distinction.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: It is.
Andrea: So tell me a little bit more about that.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, presence, first of all, probably for any of us is “How am I here?” “Where am I?” “Am I in the place that I’m sitting in?” “Am I focused in my own being, in my own body or am I here but I’m somewhere else?” So presence is where a good question I would ask is where am I literally? And I mean, literally. I will sometimes start my classes by saying to my students, where are you? And at first, everyone used to laugh at me and I’m saying to them, not how are you, but where are you? What do you need to do to bring yourself into this moment in this room so that we can have a learning environment? And since then, of course I asked the question whenever, whatever, I’m myself. If I find myself off, I’ll just say, “Where am I?” “What do I need to do?” “Do I need to put my feet on the floor?” “Do I need to walk around?” “Do I need to take a breath?” But the real question underneath it all is where am I? It sounds so simple, doesn’t it?
Andrea: It does. And yet I really understand because just a simple example when I was in college, I was a vocal major. And so singing was just something that I did a lot. And I would go in for my voice lesson and my teacher would ask me kind of, how are you doing? And she would kind of ask those questions even though it’s not a where are you right now, it was getting to where are you, you know. It was allowing me to kind of process a little bit how he was feeling so that I could come into the moment and actually sing.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Exactly.
Andrea: And I think makes a lot of sense.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: So that’s part of it. And now there’s a lot of research and work being done changing it from just presence to presencing. Now think about that one because then it becomes an active process and an active practice. And there are things you can do to really, and this is at a slightly higher level than just where are you, what are you doing in your own life, but as leaders, how are you guiding others to find their voice, find their heart, and find their spirit. And then how do you find that as you’re working with other people, how do you line up a group so that the group can be fully present and working from all of that integrative place in their own being? It’s really important as your teacher was showing you and your vocal. You can’t sing if you’re not in your body. And I can’t talk if I’m not in my body. I can, but I can’t talk from the place that I want to work from.
Andrea: So why is it so important that leaders be able to help a group of people, be able to become more present? I know that that’s not necessarily what everybody is thinking all the time. You know, people don’t go into leadership thinking I need to help people be more present. And yet I know that this is certainly important. So tell us why. Why should we even put effort towards that when we’re people who want to have influence?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, first of all, the work now is starting to come together around this. There’s a lot of work about how do you working more from your authentic self. You begin to hear that or working from the inside out, leading from the inside out, finding your own purpose, your own values, your own core, your own place. And so it’s starting to come together that this is critically important to how to thrive whether you’re in a group, you’re in a large system, you’re in a community, you’re in a church, or you’re in an agency, you have to start from the place of presence in order to be able to function effectively, to live more fully. Now, I mean that’s a really simplistic term to say it and if you’re working with a corporation, you might say it helps the bottom line. If you’re working with a not-for-profit, you might say, this is really a way to show your core values. Do you see what I mean? But really, it’s how do you have an effective meeting? How do you get out of the police where we’re always judging each other or we’re doing 5 million things instead of just being there in that moment doing the thing that we need to do to effectively contribute to whatever the product or the service or our own wellbeing in any endeavor that we’re involved in.
Andrea: So let’s take it to a meeting. Let’s take that as an example.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Sure.
Andrea: People are walking into the meeting and there is an agenda. Somebody is leading the meeting, what’s going on in the individuals that are coming in the door and how can they move from being distracted and out in, you know, trying to get their to-do-lists done in their own head rather than, you know, sort of being in the moment. How does a leader guide the group in that situation?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, first of all, if the group is used to the leader doing that, say for my department, we always start with a moment of say silence or centering because we all know that’s what we’re modeling for our programs and our classes. However, I go to other meetings and we immediately start right in. And so if I’m starting something where I’m the leader in a new place, I’ll ask permission. I’ll say, “Would it be OK with us if we start with just a quick moment of focusing?”, I never say meditation or grounding or you know, you all are way out of your coming in with all your to do list. I’ll just say, “Can we just stop for a moment and come together so that we are able to function together in concert.” So that’s one way to do it.
Andrea: I really like that idea of saying, “Can we stop for a moment of focusing?” I think that that is a really good tip.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yeah. And also to ask permission because some folk, I mean I think that’s really important. Sometimes, some of my students, for instance, will learn a new technique or a new concept. And they’ll go home and they’ll say to whoever or wherever they’re working, “Oh, I see what you’re doing whatever it is, you know, your odd alignment, you’re jumping the ladder of influence.” And I’m saying to them, “Don’t do that.” You’re learning some new things that you need to incorporate into your own being before you can cow call out somebody else because they’re not doing it. So, that’s would be the same thing for a leader in a group. You know, rather than calling out, you might say, “I really like to try something new to get us more effective in and probably out of here quicker.”
Andrea: Uh-hmm, exactly. To most people they would be thrilled to hear that.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yeah. I think you know, let’s try away of being able to focus quickly and also another thing is just doing it in a couple of minutes. You know, don’t take people who aren’t used to this through 20 minutes of something. You know, give five minutes of, put your feet on the floor. I’ll walk around and you know, if that isn’t going to work in a group then find something that does. You know, it could be have a little snack before we start walk around. I have a tendency in my groups, I make people walk around, stand up, but they’re used, you know, that’s what they’re used to me. If they’re not used to me, I’m very cautious.
Andrea: Have you ever used storytelling to help them focus?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yes, I’m starting it, yes. And I’ve been part of what we did over the last couple of years was to begin to take some of our courses and integrate in our community. And we brought somebody in who would guide us to begin with a storytelling. I have just instituted that into one of my classes. Each of my students is going to have to do a circle story starting October 22nd and I have never done this before, but I’m giving them some guidelines about. I want you to just tell a story. The only hard and fast rules, it has to be five minutes and then they can write it. They can talk it. They can do whatever they want in that five minutes, but then they have to write a summary of it that they handmade. So I’m really curious to see how this is going to work.
Andrea: That’s my primary way of getting a group to focus is start out with a story.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well how do you do that?
Andrea: I usually just start in. I don’t tell them I’m going to tell them a story, I just sort of start telling the story.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I love this.
Andrea: And I take them into the moment. I learned really how to do that when I wrote my book and it’s a memoir and I didn’t really know how to do that before that. But to really bring people into the moment, setting the scene, that sort of thing, making sure that there’s something, a reason to listen to the story, you know, that there’s something at stake and then either closing the loop right away or at least giving some enough of a conclusion that it will lead into the topic at hand. And then coming back at the end to make sure to close it up completely with that last little, and so therefore, you know, you go and do the thing, you know, whatever the thing is. And I feel like it has been super impactful and effective.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, I love this. We’re going to do a leadership summit here in April and that’s why I’m testing this now. I’m beginning to think that’s the way to start the start the summit.
Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s exciting.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I haven’t got it all in my head yet, but this is the beginning of thinking about it. Because stories, the way you’re describing them, “I’m closing the loop.” They can be personal. They can work with the group. The group can have a story or the system can have a story or a person can have a story. I love the way that you’re describing it.
Andrea: I find that it really helps when it’s a light story where there’s something deeper underneath always.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Always.
Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s not a hard, hard thing to tell. It’s not a hard thing to listen to, but there’s something really deep underneath of it. Yeah.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Like a parable.
Andrea: Yeah. Right, exactly a parable, which Jesus used quite well and it’s something that we have gotten poor at doing. We’ve want to just tell people what to do instead of sharing a story that could illustrate it. It’s very interesting.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: So what has been some of the results for you?
Andrea: Well, I guess mostly people being able to pay attention and people feeling like I feel like I see people actually present in the moment and that sort of thing. So let’s go back to you. Let’s go back to you. I’m sorry, I didn’t want to hijack the conversation, but I thought that’s such a good idea of bringing people into that focusing moment and I hadn’t made that connection myself before that that’s exactly what was going on.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Right. I just need to say I don’t feel hijacked at all.
Andrea: OK.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I thought that was a great intervention.
Andrea: OK that’s fun. I think you and I could talk a long time, Nancy.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: It’s beginning to feel that way.
Andrea: But I’m actually really curious more about this idea of collaboration and working within a system. These are other things that you really talk a lot about. And so what do you see as being some of the most foundational elements of a team that can really work together in collaboration well?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Trust is huge. How does that happen? A team needs to be able to communicate. And I mean literally, the root word of communicate is commune. So, a team that is used to working together may need a little bit of tipping into another direction if the communication is off. Collaboration means first, also being able to say, “I’m great at this. You are great at that, can we share whatever we need to do because none of us is by ourselves can handle the whole thing.” I’m sure you’ve heard the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but that’s literal. I mean that is a literal equation that works for collaboration. Everybody can contribute and everybody has a gift. So if you really want collaboration, we need to learn how to honor each other’s gifts and be able to say, “You’re great at this, can you handle that?” And that’s of course if everybody’s willing and also that there isn’t always one leader. There may be somebody that’s in the ability of seeing the whole, but can also let the parts work on their own ways. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Oh yeah. And I wonder too, do you think that people kind of need permission to be themselves in those situations?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: They not only need permission, sometimes they need to learn how to do it. And in conversations, especially hard ones have to be facilitated usually, but conversations in groups where we just need to get things done, some folks can’t stand the process around the communication. Others love the process but want to get right into the structure of something. So, I think for collaborating in a group, you have to have it all. You have to have a way to open and close the loop, as you said. You also have to have an agenda. You also have to have probably goals if that’s needed or tasks or whatever the purpose is. And I think that’s underneath the whole thing as well as you have to know the purpose of a group. Otherwise, have you noticed things just they’ll flounder, you know? But if you know your purpose then you have sort of a landmark or a map or a way to stay on purpose even if things go differently from the way we think they’re going to go. My own idea for planning is to have like three separate arm strategies and then an optimum and then OK. Maybe none of those are going to work but at least I’ve thought about them.
Andrea: Yeah.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: And then I don’t walk in with that. I’ll throw that away. But I’ve thought that there’s always a way that whatever I’m thinking about can somehow be integrated, but maybe not necessarily the way I’m thinking it ought to be. So, yeah, I suppose the collaboration is a lot if I’m really truly living that the sum is greater than the sum of its parts, then I also have to live with the fact of letting go and controlling some of it. That has been a hard lesson.
Andrea: Yeah. Being kind of open to offering your ideas without demanding that they’d be the way that it goes.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Exactly. That’s kind of interesting to have to learn to do that. A professor in a classroom, my classrooms, I have to do it all the time. And my students laugh with me now because I’ll recalibrate standing right in front of them. “OK, this is going to have to change right now.” But I’m not afraid of that anymore. You know, I’m into it long enough to know they’re appreciating me doing that.
Andrea: You used to be afraid of it?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I didn’t know how to do it, you know, I mean I’m trained highly left-brained. I’m trained in traditional ways of, well, research for one thing, but also for the way you consult, say, in systems. And I’m standing in the classroom and I was trained, you’d never tell anything about yourself and that’s sort of got to be thrown away in a program like I run. And then I don’t lecture, so what’s going to emerge in the classroom is something we’ll have to work with. I don’t know that I was afraid. I just didn’t connect up that it was a skill that I could do it. That it was OK.
Andrea: And is that something that you teach people to do?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I do.
Andrea: Yeah.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I absolutely do.
Andrea: And what sort of process do they have to go through internally to kind of get to the point where they can do that?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, it depends on the level of the class and whether they’re in my program or, you know, in my leadership classes I have a lot of sometimes across different disciplines. They’re not as used to me as my own students. So, I have to _____ really carefully, like in my first class, I’ll ask permission to do focusing. Now, they expect it in my own classes there, especially those that have had me more than once. They’re ready for this. They’re ready to be a part of the process. So, they’re learning that they can be a part of the process. In some of the classes, I’m teaching leadership skills because leadership skills have to be…they can be learned and that’s the message underneath our whole program. And that they’re different from management skills. We have great MBA programs, but that’s not what I’m doing.
Andrea: So, what is the difference between management and leadership?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: It’s really appropriate. They’re totally different, disciplines really. Leadership is teaching a set of skills of how to see systems, how to lead, how to lead change, and notice that it’s lead. Management is a control function and really the important one, but it’s still a control function. And a lot of times what we’re finding is people who are really great managers who are all thrown into leadership positions and then it’s a “Duh, what do I do now?” Because the skills for management and control are not necessarily the skills for leading, especially leading people or systems. So, they’re just totally different skills. I’m teaching interpersonal communication skills. I’m teaching some cross-cultural awareness skills, a way of seeing holistically. Can you hear the language? If I were teaching in an MBA program, I’d be teaching some finance and management and control. I would be teaching planning and I teach planning as well, but it’s a different way of thinking about planning. For me, the planning is at the vision level. For management and control, it’s at the implementation level, and they’re really both important.
Andrea: Absolutely.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: It’s just that I’m not doing that.
Andrea: They’re just different.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yeah, they’re totally different and there’s been a lot of, I think, confusion, especially in the beginning of, leadership, now is a great jargon word. Everybody is into leadership but what does that mean? Do you see what I’m saying?
Andrea: Oh yeah.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: “Oh, I lead all the time.” “Well, OK, you know, that’s great.” But that is also not the way we’re teaching it. We’re teaching people to be effective leaders, to be effective in their bodies, to be effective _____ projecting to really look at their biases and the way that they communicate _____ other people who are equally skilled, be able to also function at the same level. Does that make sense?
Andrea: Yes. So, Nancy, I know that you said that you have this leadership summit that’s coming up. When is that? Is that something that you want to tell the audience about?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Yes, it’s coming up April 17th, 18th and 19th. We’re calling it Salve’s Leadership Community Summit. It’s an emerging summit, but we’re in the process now of…we want to get folks together that really want to actually start learning about storytelling, about planning, design learning about the ability to create dialogues around topics that are of interest. And we’ll create some topics that we think of our interests. We’re thinking probably inclusion is going to be one of them. Also what it means to lead now, what it means to lead going forward into the future globally.
Andrea: Hmm. That’s huge.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: And our program is a program that works from the individual all the way through thinking global issues. So, I think what we’re going to try to do is use that as our ability to help people work through a lot. But mostly, I think underneath it all, it’s get together and have people learn to have good conversations across sectors. I think that’s my main vision. That’s as far as we’ve gotten.
Andrea: That’s so important. Well, it sounds wonderful. If people are interested in attending that, how do they find it?
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Well, we’re going to have a domain up very soon, but for the moment they can contact me at nancy.gordon@salve.edu. So that’s one way. They can contact our grad studies program. Kristen’s number, I think you have it.
Andrea: We’ll make sure to put that in the show notes so that people can find it easily.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: We’ll have a domain up for the summit very soon.
Andrea: Then it might be up by the time the podcast episode comes up.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: When is it coming up?
Andrea: I’m not sure yet, but we’ll talk about it later.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Oh OK.
Andrea: So no problem. So yeah, we’ll have information about how to find this summit and if you’re interested in attending, if you want to look, check it out. We’ll have the information on that on our website in the show notes so that you can easily find it. But Nancy, one more question for you today. Again, I feel like we could talk for hours and hours and hours.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: I agree.
Andrea: But what would be one final sort of tip that you would leave with the audience for somebody who really wants to have a voice of influence.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Be yourself. And that might mean find out who you are. If you know who you are, trust it, use it, and be proud of it.
Andrea: Beautiful. Beautiful. Love it. Thank you so much for being a voice of influence for our listeners today.
Dr. Nancy Gordon: Thank you so much for having me.