With all of the global crises that have happened this year, people are stressed and we’re finding ourselves in the middle of a great divide when it comes to our perspectives on many important topics and it’s certainly having an impact on how we’re able to be a voice of influence.
In this episode, Rosanne and I discuss the growing lack of respect and trust for expertise and how you can get people to buy into your ideas in spite of that, the parallels between parenting and getting buy-in on your ideas from those around you, the importance of understanding that some people react based on logic while others react based on emotion, the value of taking actions to calm a situation rather than escalate it and the role self-awareness plays in that process, and more!
Transcript
Hey there! Welcome to the Voice of Influence podcast. I’m Andrea Wenburg and Rosanne is with me again today. We’re going to have a good conversation here in just a minute. And we want to set it up a little bit by explaining, in case you haven’t been around much or if you didn’t realize what we’re really about. Voice of Influence serves leaders and subject matter experts by helping them navigate personal and interpersonal human dynamics in order to effectively engage others and carry out their strategic mission.
So, if you are somebody who are in leadership, you have some expertise, and you really want to get that into the hands of the people that need it, we’re here to help you do that because there’s a lot going on that can get in the way of that happening. And so, we’re going to talk about that a little bit today.
Now, just so you know, if you are interested in growing in your own social emotional intelligence, so that you can handle difficult conversations, feedback conversations, or things that need to happen between two people. You’re wanting to convince somebody of something or you’re wanting to confront them about something, and you want to do this with more ease. Well, we have a free mini course for you, and we’re so excited about it, and in under 30 minutes, you’re going to learn how to implement our proprietary model so that your conversations have a deep impact on others.
Go to voiceofinfluence.net and hit the podcast tab and there you’ll find more information about our free course the Deep Impact method.
Andrea: Rosanne, welcome back to the show.
Rosanne Moore: It’s good to be here.
Andrea: And we’ve kind of been trying to talk through some of the things that we want to talk about today. So, I’m just going to kind of let you set us up.
Rosanne Moore: Well, we have talked a lot recently about how we see what you’ve referred to as the great divide, this divide in our nation with people. with different worldviews and how in this past year, in 2020, it’s become more problematic with all of the crises that are going on globally and nationally. People are stressed, they’re tired, and it’s caused an even sharper division in perspective. So, talk to me about that, Andrea, what do you see happening?
Andrea: Well, I think the thing that kind of most concerns me for our audience in particular, has to do with the growing lack of respect for expertise in general. And not just a lack of respect, but it’s also just general confusion about where should I get my information? Who can I trust? How do I know that I can trust somebody and what they’re telling me?
Rosanne Moore: Right.
Andrea: You know, my dad grew up, “You just trust the doctor.” “The doctor tells you what to do, and you just trust them.” And now there’s a lot more for good cause and good reason, people are advocating for themselves more in their own healthcare, which is good. And yet, some of this finding your own voice and advocating for yourself, asking questions has turned into more cynicism and skepticism of what experts really provide.
Rosanne Moore: Yeah, I mean, we’ve talked about how an expert is someone who really has devoted themselves to a subject so that they learned the nuances of it. And so assuming that, because you have a piece of information, that’s equal in weight to somebody who’s looked at all of the nuances of something, that can be dangerous. It’s got to be frustrating for our listeners who are experts in their field when they try to bring something and they’re not heard.
Andrea: Right, right. So, as a listener, maybe you have experienced this yourself where you have expertise to share but it’s not necessarily being taken with the same level of trust and “Okay, sure, I’ll do what you suggest.” Or maybe you’ve got a change that needs to be made in your working environment, and you know that this is the right thing to do, you know, that this is the best thing to do, but you’re having a hard time getting people on board with it. And I think that part of what we’re seeing in 2020 is this general like, confusion about like, “Why should I trust you?” “Why should I do what you suggest to do?”
Rosanne Moore: So, what should a leader do? I mean, how do they get buy in on essential change? That’s something that our organization specializes in. So, share some of that, Andrea, what has led you in your thinking about this topic?
Andrea: Hmm. Well, you know, I sort of grew up watching my teachers and there are other students in my classes. And it was just really observing when people actually understanding the teacher and taking in their information and obeying the rules of the classroom and when where they not and why. Why was this happening? I was constantly asking this question that was rolling around in my mind and kind of got to the point where I’d start to predict that when a teacher would say something, I’d be like, “They’re not gonna be able to understand that.” And then I’d try to think of a new way to explain it to somebody, you know, not because I always knew.
I would oftentimes have to ask the questions myself and figure out what they’re trying to say or what they’re trying to accomplish. And then perhaps every once in a while, you know, be a translator for another student in the class. I needed a translator sometimes too but the point is that I just sort of have been studying this even as a kid. And so, you know, I’ve continued to pursue that through my education, in my post secondary education. And then I became a mom and, Roseanne, when you’re a mom, you have to really negotiate. You have to be really good at getting people, little people to comply with what you have to say.
Rosanne Moore: Right, absolutely into to make sure you’re getting behind their eyes so that you understand where the breakdown is. So, you’re not trying to fix something that’s not broken and missing what is.
Andrea: Right. And this story comes to mind about 10 years ago, my daughter, she was about three. We had continually gotten into this situation where I would tell her to do something or tell her it was time to do something; she would start to be upset about being told what to do. And then I would get stern like I grew up thinking I should do. I should be stern and I should take control of the situation, “I’m the mom here.” and give her that mom look, you know. And that would set her off even more and the situation would just escalate.
So, of course, I’m given a child that is not ideal for my way of interacting and moving in the world. I mean, you know, I had a whole plan for parenting before I started parenting. Don’t we all before we start? And I think this is so applicable to all of life. So, that’s the reason why I’m telling this story.
But anyway, so this has been happening quite a bit. And one night, it was it was about time for bed and I said, “Amelia, why don’t you go brush your teeth?” And she looked at me and she said, she didn’t want to brush her teeth and I don’t remember exactly how that came out or I had no idea why. But it just felt like a, “I don’t want to do it because you just told me to do it, so therefore I don’t want to do it.” And there was this pushback and I thought for a second, I was going to do the mom look and get really stern. And then I thought about it for a second, I’m like, “There’s something else going on here.”
And I had been studying other things. So, I have a background in psychology and theology and some other things, and I’d been studying this for myself and trying to understand myself and why I was so irritated sometimes. I would get really angry, irrationally so, and I didn’t always know why. And then I started to really think about it. I’m like, “You know what, when I’m really angry…” sort of prickly like a porcupine, feeling attacked or whatever it might be, “I want to just punch people.” You know, not actually physically but that’s what my presence is. I want to punch back.
But what I realized that I needed was I needed somebody to come calm me down because I didn’t actually want to do that, I actually wanted to cry. And I didn’t want to admit that I wanted to cry. But there was something inside of me that was sad and I needed help, like I was reacting in anger. And that’s a normal thing for people to do to react out of that anger instead of reacting out of sadness.
So, when I looked at my daughter and things were going in that direction of escalation, I have one way of thinking about this, she has another. We’re both feeling disrespected right now. And I feel like as a parent, I should be able to take control of the situation. But instead I looked at her and I thought, “What if she is acting like a porcupine, but she really just needs somebody to help her calm down. Maybe I could be compassionate and help her calm down instead of being angry and forcing her to do what I told her to do and ending up in a big power struggle, and everybody being frustrated.”
So, I just looked at my little girl with her fiery eyes and I knelt down on the floor, and I reached out my hands and I just kind of opened up my arms. I had no idea what would happen. And as soon as she saw me do that, she came in and kind of fell into my arms and started to cry.
Rosanne Moore: Ohh!
Andrea: Why, because I asked her to brush her teeth? No. You know, like there was so much more going on in that moment underneath the surface. And so, of course, I sort of teared up too, and I’m kind of tearing up right now thinking about it again.
Rosanne Moore: I am too just listening.
Andrea: Because this has played out many, many times since then in our relationship. And I’ve realized that there’s something else going on inside of my daughter that is causing her to react with that kind of prickliness. And the same thing happens with me. She starts to be disrespectful of me, so then I feel disrespected and then I get prickly and only it furthers the process. It only further escalates the whole thing. So, I think that moment taught me something so huge, because after I gave her that hug and I just held her for a little bit, it was not hard to have her go brush her teeth.
That was not the issue. It was just the simple like, maybe it was me asking her to change course in the middle of, you know, her playing and she didn’t want to stop. It could have been that she felt like I didn’t care what she thought and I was already starting to look at her with a face that was the stern mom look and she doesn’t feel loved and that she feels disrespected and so that she was reacting to that. It could have been a number of things. But I think that the main thing that I learned from that was that sad is under angry.
Rosanne Moore: Right.
Andrea: Sad is under angry.
Rosanne Moore: And I think what I’m hearing from you too, correct me if I’m wrong, is that if a leader makes the mistake of engaging someone who has an emotional barrier to something and just tries to do it logically, like with a kind of a command thing, they’re not actually going to be heard. And so, when you’re running into resistance, it’s important to look for what is taking the person you’re trying to talk to out of a logical place and into an emotional place. And if the leader is getting triggered to be in an emotional place, that’s what it sounds like you were doing with Amelia.
Andrea: Exactly.
Rosanne Moore: So, being aware on both levels, what’s taking us out of a place of actual dialogue, and I know in my background with teaching special needs kids, the two sides of the brain, the emotional side and the intellectual processing side are different. And if you have the emotional side flaring, you’re not going to get anything taught. And so that’s what I hear you saying, am I right in that?
Andrea: Right. So, you know, it kind of goes back to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. People need to feel like they’re taken care of. Their physical needs, their emotional needs are taken care of before they can really start moving in a new direction before they can really start changing something. And so, if there is a sense of “I’m not safe right now,” or “I’m not respected right now,” then it’s going to be really hard for that person to let down their guard, not fight back, and let down their guard and then be able to actually take in what you have to say at all, let alone make the decision to follow what you’ve said.
I mean that is what we talk about in the Deep Impact method. And I seriously want as many people to watch this video series as possible. It’s a short course and it’s for free. And I want as many people to watch this as possible, because what I’m hearing back from people who have watched it is that it actually is kind of mind shift for the way that they’re talking to people. And my hope is that, you know, when we look at our conversations, and we see the other person on the other side, and they are getting emotional, there is an escalation that’s about to take place, or we know that this is what typically happens. That we as a voice of influence, that I as a voice of influence will stop and say, “Now wait a second what’s going on here?” “What do I know that is true about me?” “What do I know that is possible, like what could they possibly be going through and then how do we move forward from here?”
So, the main point of that particular story is both the fact that there’s something else going on underneath the surface, but then also that if we address the sadness first, we’re going to have a much easier time getting to change. If we’re just reacting out of the anger, where I’m angry, you’re angry, we continue to be angry and we don’t address the actual grief of the moment. There’s something going on inside of you. There’s something going on inside of me that I’m sad, we are sad. If we don’t address that, we’re skipping over something vitally important that could get us to a solution much, much quicker.
Rosanne Moore: And I think to it as you’re talking, it’s not always your daughter’s reaction was to push back vocally but sometimes people shut down when they’re in grief. And so either way, whether they push back or whether they shut down, having that awareness of what’s going on, that’s getting in the way of actually, like being able to dialogue is so important. So, when you work with leaders to help them navigate through this undercurrent internal reactions and adoption of changes, obviously, you’re not going to have them go hug them like you did with your daughter. So, what process do you recommend?
Andrea: Well, first of all, self-awareness. First of all, we all have to kind of look at ourselves and say, I mean, one of the best reasons I was able to actually be able to take this to a new level with my daughter was because I understood about this about that myself. So, first of all, what’s going on inside of me right now and why am I so angry? And if I am angry, what is sad about this situation?
Rosanne Moore: So, you’re in motivation, being aware of what was motivating you was crucial.
Andrea: Yes. Look underneath the surface to say and to be able to ask about this particular situation that I’m in right now, “What is sad about this to me?” Because if I can be honest about my own, what’s hard about this, what’s difficult about this? Then I can share that with the other person and say, “Look, this is really hard for me. I do not like having to go down this path. But here we are, you know, it’s the beginning of empathy to be able to really understand yourself and be honest about that. It helps you to be more empathetic toward the other person. It helps the other person be more empathetic toward you.
Rosanne Moore: And I think sometimes it can be fear underneath anger. I see that a lot, you know, that the anger is a safeguard against feeling fear.
Andrea: So, fear and sadness, I think are very similar. There’s the fear, but then there’s the sadness about the fear.
Rosanne Moore: Right.
Andrea: So, I would I would still get back down to that. So, what is going to help calm the situation instead of what’s going to feed the fire? So, what does this person need from me to empathize with me? . Fear is sad. It’s sad that people are afraid. So anyway, I would go back to what is sad about this situation. Well, it’s sad because I’m absolutely terrified of, you know, whatever might be going on. That is sad. So, I need to know that about me. I need to start to understand what might be going on with that.
So then, after that self-awareness, then there’s a sense of, “Okay, now I need to be curious and empathetic and respectful of why the other person might be resisting.” So, the respect here may not be the kind of respect that is like, “I respect you because you have earned my respect the way that you’ve treated people and your expertise and all that kind of stuff.” It might not be that kind of respect. Instead, it could be the kind of respect that is about the other person actually being a human being. I respect the fact that you’re a human being, that you have emotional needs, that you have an experience of all of your own.
So, if I can start there too, if I understand, “Okay, so I respect that you’re a human being, and that there’s a reason why you’re resisting.” Then I start to can start to ask those questions inside of myself. I can start to kind of dig a little and the other person. So, what might be going on? Why might they be resisting? What might they be sad about?
Rosanne Moore: And what if it’s not? Part of it could be at times, not knowing something, right? Not having certain skills or resources. Sometimes the emotional thing has a very practical component to it. Would that not be true?
Andrea: Yes. So, when we get to this point, the curiosity, the respect, all that kind of thing, then I think that we can look at it in three kinds of components, what might be causing this person to resist; the head, the hands, or the heart? So, the head being what do they still need to know or understand so that they can move forward, so that they don’t feel resistant? For the hands, what skills or resources do they need to pull it off? And for the heart, what beliefs or feelings are going to need to change?
First, I think you have to address the fear or the sadness that we were talking about before, at least being able to understand that about the other person. And then to ask that question of is there something that you need to be able to move forward? Or is there something that’s getting in the way that you don’t understand? Is there something else that you need in terms of resources or is there just like you totally are resistant because you don’t agree that this is the right direction to go?
Rosanne Moore: You know, talking about this, Andrea, reminds me of a situation that I was in with the birth of my second child. I have had a very traumatic delivery. And there was some medical malpractice and mistakes had been made with my first child. And so, with my preparing for the birth of my second child, I was very resistant to the idea of letting somebody else make decisions that I didn’t feel comfortable with. I had gone into it very trusting the first time, didn’t know a lot, and the second time I was going to be prepared.
And I can remember interviewing doctors, pediatricians and they picked up immediately. It was not hard kind of wearing it, my resistance to their expertise. I think there were four different ones that I interviewed and the first three responded to that by doubling down on why they were the expert and I was not and I needed to do things, like they needed to call the shots. Understandable, obviously, I had not been to medical school; I had not done all the things that they had done. But the last one, when I started asking questions about how he handled things, instead of answering my questions, he asked me a question. He said, “Did you have a bad experience?”
Andrea: Oh, perfect!
Rosanne Moore: And I told him what had happened and he said, “I’m so sorry that happened to you. I can understand why you really want to make sure that your baby is taking care of well this time.” And so then he walked back through all those other questions that I had and he explained his expertise, and that’s who I chose.
Andrea: Of course, yes.
Rosanne Moore: Now, did he make any suggestions that were different than the others? No, he didn’t. He held the exact same position, but he was the one I chose because he did engage me on that level.
Andrea: Yes. It so, so good. What a great example, Rosanne. I mean, it goes back to that people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.
Rosanne Moore: Right.
Andrea: And the reason for that is that they don’t feel safe.
Rosanne Moore: Yes.
Andrea: People are resisting you and you’re resisting what you have to share with them, your expertise, your knowledge or experience. They’re resisting, they’re resisting, they’re resisting. There’s something in them that is not feeling safe. And so, it may be because of you, it may not. But it’s _____ upon you as the person who is wanting to have, you know, the influence as somebody who cares about other people to ask that question, you know, “What might be going on?” “Is there a bad experience?” Or, you know, it could have been a different situation. It might be a different question, but you stay curious and be respectful of that other person, even though they weren’t at medical school with you. Man, that’s so important.
Rosanne Moore: Yeah. And all of my birth experiences, quite honestly, that was the best birth experience because both my OB and the pediatrician were very aware of what I had been through the first time and they did everything in their power to make sure that I felt heard and a part of the decisions and respected throughout the process. Yeah.
Andrea: It’s so good. So, it’s time for us to wrap up, Rosanne.
Rosanne Moore: Sure.
Andrea: I think that if I were to summarize anything here, or if I just say, please remember this, please remember that sad is under angry. Please, remember that. There is a reason why people are angry, and it’s not usually the top response. It’s not usually the core response. It doesn’t mean that it’s not important. Anger is very important. And it doesn’t mean that we should write off people’s anger, it means that we need to be curious about why they’re angry and what might be going on inside of them that could actually be sad.
One more thought on this. I’ve got a question for you, the listener. When do you feel most close to people, when you’re arguing with them or when they tear up? And maybe you start to give them a hug or, you know, maybe you don’t touch them. But, I mean, we feel closer to people when we can see that they’re actual human beings. And we’re not just arguing on a on this other level, that is maybe just about things that are on the surface that we’re not really getting down underneath.
And so, if we can get down underneath, if we can feel that empathy for the other person’s human experience that is vitally important. If you have expertise, it’s vitally important that you understand that you can’t just share your expertise. You’re going to have to be an expert on people too.
So, the rest of this month, we’re going to be talking about this particular topic. Next week we’re going to be airing an interview that I did with Dr. Espen Klausen, the psychologist on The Psychology Behind Personal Change. Then we’ll take another look at that and we’re going to just dive a little bit deeper here the rest of the month on this particular topic. We’re kind of excited about taking a little deeper dive. It’s sort of like a theme we’ve got running right now, Rosanne,
Rosanne Moore: Yes. So, if you want to become more effective in conversations where you’re encouraging an individual to make change, whether it’s in a formal situation an annual review or responding to feedback on the job, or whether it’s just in a passing conversation. We started out by talking about the deep divide in our nation, maybe you have family members that you want to be able to engage better or there’s someone close to you that needs to take more responsibility for something, a bad habit they’re stuck in. We have a free mini course that’s available for you.
And Andrea already made reference to this at the top of the show, but go to voiceofinfluence.net/podcasts and you can find information on the Deep Impact method. Also, if you want to work one on one with Andrea but you’re not sure what that would look like for your specific business situation, we recommend starting with the Clarify your Voice Call. Again, you can go to voiceofinfluence.net and hit the contact button there and ask to learn more about clarifying your voice.
Andrea: Thank you, Roseanne. All right, so your voice matters, let’s make it matter more!