Dr. Debra Wingfield is an Author, Speaker, and Trainer for family abuse prevention and intervention treatment.  She practiced counseling for 25 years with domestic abuse victims, offenders, adults, and children from all types of dysfunctional family systems. She’s also provided family court advocacy since 1993 and would love to be able to train those within the court system about trauma.

In this episode, Debra shares what the courts miss in cases of domestic abuse due to not being sufficiently trauma-informed, the societal impact that misconceptions about abuse can have, what it means for the rest of society if we don’t actually address these misconceptions and have the correct understanding about trauma, the difference between parenting with coercive control and parenting in a healthy way, and so much more.

Mentioned in this episode:

• Dr. Debra Wingfield’s Website
• Dr. Debra Wingfield’s Book | Eyes Wide Open: Help! with Control Freak Co-parents
• Dr. Debra Wingfield’s Advocacy Training Program
• Email Dr. Debra Wingfield: info@houseofpeacepubs.com
• Called to Peace Ministries
• CDC-Kaiser ACE Study
• Power and Control Wheel
• Evan Stark’s Book | Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life (Interpersonal Violence)

 

Find our Lifeline resources and information about the course here.

 

Transcript

All right, so today I have with me Debra Wingfield.  She is an author, speaker, and trainer for family abuse prevention and intervention treatment.  She practiced counseling for twenty-five years with domestic abuse victims, offenders, adults, and children from all types of dysfunctional family systems, and she’s provided family court advocacy since 1993.  She would love to be able to train those within the court system about trauma.

So, in our conversation, one of the things that we talk about is what the courts miss in cases of domestic abuse because they are not sufficiently trauma-informed.  She also talks about the societal impact that misconceptions about abuse can have; so what it means for the rest of society if we don’t actually address these and have the correct understanding about trauma.  And then we also talk about the difference between parenting with coercive control and parenting in a healthy way.

There’s a lot to be gained from this episode, and I really look forward to you hearing.  Enjoy!

Andrea:  All right!  Debra Wingfield, it is great to have you on the Voice of Influence podcast.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Thank you, Andrea.  I’m honored to be here.

Andrea:  Would you tell us a little bit about what you do and why you do it?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay.  Well, I have been working in the field of abuse and working with trauma survivors for over forty-five years now in my career.  And I’ve worked with children.  I’ve worked with adults.  I’ve worked with teenagers.  And in all of that work what I found is that the dynamics that are connected with domestic abuse and coercive control have lifelong impacts on the individuals involved in that.  So, I have, over the years, gone from actually being a therapist and doing the groundwork there to now being more of an educator.  I have an online training center where I actually train people to understand the dynamics of domestic abuse and coercive control as well as how to actually help people – whether it’s survivors or it’s the abusers, how to work with them and help them go through a change process that will help them heal.

Andrea:  Hmm.  Who tends to be the people that you help with that?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Right now, I’m partnered with a program called Called Peace Ministries.  I’m training advocates for their program to work within the church system as well as in the community to actually be there and available for survivors who are coming out of relationships where they’ve been abused or they’ve been coercively controlled.  And to help them get through the court system as well as they can based on a very broken court system that we’re working with right now, to protect their children, to keep their children as safe as they can.

And I know you have some questions about the court system.  So one of the other things that I do is I actually serve as an advocate for survivors that are going through the family court.  And as I’m doing my work with them, I’m also teaching others to do that same work because that’s a legacy that I want to be leaving behind is that we’re creating an army.  And that army is to go out there into the communities around the world and we are international at this point and educating so that people understand more about, not only the dynamics, but the impacts and how that impacts us in society and how it can have lifetime impacts on those who are abused.

Andrea:  Do you do some of this training with professionals within the court system somehow?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  That’s my dream.  I would like to be working with some of the professionals that work in the court system.  At this point and time, they consider their training that they get through their degree programs as sufficient for the work that they’re doing.  And we know that through the research, we’ve been able to show that their lack of training in their degree programs actually contributes to more harm to children on down the line.

Andrea:  There are a few different questions that come to mind.  Well, first of all, you’ve been in this, it sounds like you said for forty-five years; you’ve been working with children, adults, teens in various ways.  How have you sort of sustained that work, that mission and the energy that it takes to continue that mission?  I’m sure it has to be somewhat discouraging a lot of times.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  You’re right, Andrea.  There are times when it is discouraging.  However, when I see someone who is able to come through their healing and get on the other side and really make a solid life for themselves, that keeps me moving forward.  We had a tragedy the first of this year.  My granddaughter overdosed, and I had gotten into working in the family court system because she had lost her son to her abuser, and that’s what took her down that downward spiral into using drugs because she just never felt like she had an opportunity to be a part of her son’s life.  So, I have dedicated the remainder of my years that I can do this work to her and her legacy and for my great-grandchildren.  She left two children behind.

Andrea:   I’m really, really sorry to hear about your granddaughter, Debra.  Yeah, that is tragic, and I’m so sorry to hear about the disservice, the harm that the court system ended up causing for her life and the lives of the people in your family.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Well, thank you.  It’s not been easy.  We’re making adjustments as we go along.

Andrea:  Yeah.  So, when it comes to the court system then, what are some things that you feel like need to change?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  I really think the courts need to be trained in trauma-informed processes because they miss what’s going on with the survivor in courts.  Survivors tend to have a lot of anxiety in court and over an abundance of anxiety to what the courts are normally used to when someone comes in before a judge.  First of all, they know nothing about the court system.  They’ve never been, for the most part, involved in anything like this.  So, it’s very unfamiliar, and not only the courts but the attorneys really need to have a strong understanding of the kind of clients that they’re working with, who don’t know how to express what’s gone on in a marriage where they have been coercively controlled by their partner.

And as a result of that, very often what we see is judges will discount what mothers say.  They won’t believe them.  And mothers tell the truth 98% of the time in court, and judges tend to just gloss over that and buy into the charm of the abuser.  And the abuser convinces the judge that, “Oh, I was involved with the children’s lives and I did all these things with the children,” when in fact it’s the opposite.  The mother has been left to do all of that.  And then the father comes in and says, “Well, I should have at least 50% custody of my children or 50% parenting time.”  And we are changing; the language is changing across the country from custody to parenting time.

Custody actually implies a sense of ownership, and abusers capitalize on that.  That’s what they’re looking for is to own the victim, to own the children.  They’re property to them.  And when children are with their abusive parent, they may be being covertly abused, which means it’s just kind of under the surface or they don’t understand how they’re being manipulated.  But then they go back to their mother who is trying to continue to maintain the discipline, to maintain the family rules that have been set up for how their family works.  And the children balk at that because they’re basically with the other parent 50% of the time who’s playing the Disneyland parent.

So, let’s put in a couple of statistics here, so I don’t have to try to keep this gender-neutral because it’s not gender-neutral.  We know that one out of every four women has been abused by their partner at some point in their relationship and that abuse is very off and ongoing.  So, children are also experiencing that.  The research now that talks about how children experience the coercive control that’s being exerted on their mother actually has long term impacts on them as well.

Andrea:  Like what?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Like, we see health impacts in middle age.  And I don’t know if you’re familiar with the ACE study, the Adverse Childhood Experiences study.

Andrea:  No, I’m not.  Please, tell us.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay, the ACE Study was developed by Dr. Vincent Felitti in San Diego.  He was a physician in Kaiser Permanente out there, and he had set up a program for his patients who had problems with obesity.  And what he wanted to do was he wanted to make sure that they were losing weight, and keeping that weight off, and getting healthier because he comes from a prevention standpoint.  And over time, those patients who had enrolled in that program started dropping out or started regaining their weight, and he was concerned about what is causing this. And with that, he brought in their social scientists to interview the patients.  And what he found was there were ten factors that happened during their childhood, and of those ten factors, one was witnessing mother being treated violently.  Seven of those factors have to do with physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect.

Andrea:  That they personally experienced?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  That they personally experienced.  And we’re talking about a population of people that are middle-income people; they’re not low-income, they’re not higher income.  They tend to be more middle income.  And he repeated the study in other states and then around the world and kept getting the same results, that history of one to four or more of those ten factors actually resulted in midlife onset of chronic physical illnesses.  So, heart disease, high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes, having had a teen pregnancy, substance abuse, and the list goes on.  And you can actually look at the ACE study on the Centers for Disease Control website.  And on that website, there are multiple research studies that have come about.

And it was such a phenomenal study and opened up the eyes of the Centers for Disease Control so much that they changed their whole focus on how they address child abuse.  So, instead of addressing child abuse as, “We’ve got to stop the abusers,” what they saw is you’ve got to start when children are in the womb, actually, and moving forward and create safe, stable, nurturing families.  And the effort of the CDC in their violence prevention unit now is completely the opposite of what it was prior to this study in 1998.

We’re still having people catch up with the fact that this study is out there.  We’re having people still needing to catch up with all the research that has come as a result of that study that helps us understand that we have to stop children from witnessing a parent being abused.  We have to stop children from being abused.  We have to teach empathy skills when children are young enough that it carries over into adulthood so that for them hurting someone else is no longer an option.  And whether that hurt is an emotional hurt or a physical hurt, we have to stop that.  And the way that we do that is we have to do education.  And part of what I do as an educator is I talk about the prevention side as much as I talk about what is the problem and how do you identify the problem.  So, I know that was a long answer.

Andrea:  That’s okay.  This is really interesting.  I’ll be back in just a second.

Okay, so we have to catch up with this.  So it makes sense.  We’ve got to catch up with the research that’s already been done on this.  So, there’s health impacts, long-term health impacts.  What other kinds of societal impacts are there that kind of stem from the fact that the court system isn’t taken care of, as it isn’t trauma-informed that children are seeing and experiencing abuse?  How does that really impact not just those people and the people around them but then also society at large?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  So, from the standpoint of society, what we’re looking at is some of these children who do not get the help that they need from the courts – the courts do not operate very quickly and very timely – and I have seen children who have basically thrown away their education.  They coast through school, and the schools get upset and schools suspend them, schools exclude them permanently from a school district and they have to be moved into another school district because they have never learned emotional control.  So, we actually have literature that talks about children who are emotionally dis-controlled or dysregulated, and what we need to do to help them with that.

And children who come out of situations where they’ve witnessed their mother being abused or coercively controlled, where they’ve also been abused themselves, they get into trying to address their own trauma and trying to heal from it, and instead they act it out.  So, they end up in our juvenile court system.  They end up never going to college, working at jobs way beneath their intellectual capabilities.  They become abusers.

And one of the things that we do know is that boys who are exposed to witnessing coercive control, witnessing domestic abuse, actually have a greater chance of becoming abusers in their own relationships and continuing this intergenerational cycle of abuse in their families.  What we see between the ages of six to ten is they’re learning from the abuser how to treat women and beyond that.  Then they turn that around and they start treating their mothers that way until we run into situations where the guardians ad litem in the court system say, “Well, maybe this child needs to just go live with dad.  Maybe that’s the problem.  The problem is that they just aren’t getting along with Mother.”

Andrea:  And Mom can’t control them at this point, probably.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Right.

Andrea:  Because they’re trying to control the mom.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Mhm.  And then they go and live with Dad.  Well, Dad just teaches them to be better at their abuse.  And then these children start blowing off their lives because Dad doesn’t hold them to the same level of accountability that Mother does for getting their schoolwork done, for staying involved in activities, for doing the things that build good, strong, healthy adults.  What they do is Dad says, “Oh, I got a buddy.  Let’s go play video games together.  Let’s go hang out together.  Let’s go do…” whatever Dad believes is going to keep that child locked into him and be the fun person, the fun parent, and then portray the mother as the rigid, structured parent when all she’s doing is carrying out what they had agreed to do during their marriage as far as how to raise their children.

And at that point in time, he’s undermining everything that Mother is doing to where, finally, Mother goes to the court and says, “I can’t keep this child in my home, and he’s gonna have to go live with his dad.”  And the court says, “Okay, we’re gonna let him live with his dad and he needs to go to counseling so that he can learn to be a better person because that is supporting whatever he’s doing.”  When they’re with Dad, Dad undermines the counseling or never gets them to counseling.

I have a case like that where the court has ordered the father to put the son in counseling.  He had a psychological evaluation that the dad put off and put off and put off for well over a year that the court had ordered.  And now he’s about to age out of the high school system and probably will drop out on his 17th birthday and never complete high school.  And his therapy that he’s been in has only been happening for maybe three to four months now.  Dad is facing contempt of court with the judge to the point where he’s facing jail time and fines.  And the dad says, “I don’t think it’s gonna happen.  I don’t think the judge will do this to me.”

And so, what is the message to this child?  What is the message to multiple children in these situations when Dad doesn’t hold them accountable because Dad wants a buddy?  Dad is going to do whatever he can to take the children away from Mother because he’s mad because she had the audacity to leave him and to stop being abused.  That’s the bottom line.

Andrea:  Debra, what can we do or what do you feel like it would take to really…  If we were to move forward in an idealistic way, what would it take to disrupt the way that things are in the court system so that we actually see the impacts lessen – the impacts of trauma lessen – and people in more healthy environments?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  It’s going to take a huge revamp of the court system.  And I know that the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges is slowly chipping away at this.  It’s going to take a much more massive movement to have something happen dramatically.  I know of a judge in California who actually was following the dictates of what the judges taught her to do in these cases and sent the child to live with the abuser.  And when the child was murdered by the abusive father, she felt so harmed as a judge by what she had been taught that she actually resigned her judgeship because she could no longer carry out what her fellow judges were teaching her and saying she had to do.

So, there’s movements across the country to make these kinds of changes in the court system.  The Center for Judicial Excellence out in California, Kathleen Russell has led them a very strong movement in California where they’ve done audits on the courts out there to show where the courts have not done a good job.  But we need millions of dollars to do audits across the country on the court system.  Joan Meier with DV LEAP out of Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., has just completed a study of cases that were available where Mother claimed domestic violence or child abuse and Father gained at least 50% custody or more.

So, you know, we have little pockets.  This issue gets pushed underneath the surface because many people think domestic violence is physical abuse, is a physical injury – and that’s incorrect.  Domestic abuse is coercive control.  And if you look at the Power and Control Wheel that was developed by the Duluth Project out of Duluth, Minnesota, what you will find is there’s a wheel – it’s called the Power and Control Wheel – and there are eight spokes inside that wheel.  And every one of those spokes inside that wheel are coercive control – whether it’s financial abuse, using the children, using male privilege, threats, intimidation, emotional abuse – and on the outside of that wheel is physical and sexual violence.

So, what everyone goes through is, “Oh, well, there was no physical abuse.  You didn’t file a police report.  There’s no medical reports.”  And, so, therefore, the judge determines that there’s no domestic violence and does not use that part of the statute to make their ruling about parenting time.  When in actuality, what the judges need to be looking at is all of those spokes inside that wheel and addressing how all of those spokes inside that wheel were used as a way to coercively control.  I’m going to use the women because we know more women are abused in relationships than men.  The women are cut off from expressing that.

So, one of the things that I teach is stay away from saying the word “abuse” in court.  Instead, describe the behaviors of the abuser.  Describe how you were pulled out of your educational program when you became involved with a relationship with this abuser and that he convinced you that you wouldn’t need that because he was going to take care of you.  Describe how you were the parent who had to stay home with the children and homeschool the children instead of pursuing your career because someone had to do it.  And so he said you were to do that, so he isolated you from your home, sometimes even isolating from the homeschool community.

And as we go around that wheel, we can find examples of that happening on a very frequent basis in that relationship.  And then because I’m working with Called to Peace Ministries now, I’m getting more and more people coming to me who have been spiritually abused by the way that the abuser uses the church against her.  And I’m not going to do the quotes here.  I’ll just stay away from that because I come from a secular perspective.  But we do know that the churches are creating great harm to women in these relationships by saying, “Oh, you have to reconcile.”  “You have to forgive.”  “You can’t divorce.”  And that in itself is coercive control.  So, how do we change all of this?  We have to change our whole mentality around domestic abuse and coercive control.

They’ve done it in the United Kingdom and are working on it, I know, in Australia.  But in the United Kingdom in December of 2015, a law went into effect that actually criminalized coercive control.  So, all these dynamics inside that Power and Control Wheel have been criminalized.  And they have made arrests.  Yeah, they have made arrests and convicted people, and there’s a five-year prison sentence that goes with that.  So, we have to look at coercive control as a captivity crime in this country.

Andrea:  That’s a huge shift.  That is a huge shift.  That would be disrupting to not just the court system and churches but even schools.  I mean, I looked it up while you were talking about it because I’ve not seen this before, but using coercion and threats to get somebody to comply…  I mean, that can happen in a school pretty easily.  It’s using intimidation, you know, things like that.  It makes a lot of sense that we would be careful around these things and not use them and that we would criminalize them.  It is such a huge, huge shift.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  It is, and that’s why it takes so long to create that kind of shift.  Evan Stark put this together so well in his book on coercive control.  And he explains exactly what it is – it’s a condition of unfreedom.  The abuser has taken away the freedom of choice, the freedom of being their own person from the victim.  So, in our program, we teach empowerment.  We teach our advocates how to use empowerment with trauma-informed processes with the survivors and that’s so important because survivors need to finally take back their personhood, to take back their identity that has been stolen from them by the abuser.

Andrea:  How do you help people to see the difference between empowerment and helping people to take back their identity, that sort of thing… or maybe not even a difference.  I’m going back to the idea of schooling or parenting, when of course there is a certain amount of needing to kind of guide a child to make the right decisions and things like this.  So, what’s a healthy expression of parenting and schooling and that sort of thing versus the unhealthy way of approaching it with coercive control?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay, so a healthy way of parenting – and this is how I parented my daughter – is using logical and natural consequences.  This comes out of some of the early research in parenting, and one of the things that is the hallmark of that is giving children autonomy to make choices.  So, I’ll give you an example, and this is a true story with my daughter.  I had called her in, she was out riding her bike, and I called her in to set the table for dinner.  And she comes to the door and she, you know, in that whiny voice that kids use, “Oh, Mom, I just want to be outside riding my bike with my friends.”  And I said, “Well, you can do that.  However, if you choose to do that before you set the table, then the bike is mine for a week.  Now what do you want to do?”  And she said, “I’ll set the table.”

Now, I have been doing that with her from the time that she was very young.  She was about three or four years old, and I stumbled across this whole piece about logical and natural consequences.  And as a result of that, she learned that she had to make good choices.  That’s an empowerment piece.  When we work with survivors, we help them look at different options so they make the choice.  We don’t tell them what to do.  That’s what abusers do.  We say, you know, “You can look at it from this standpoint or this standpoint or even a third standpoint, if it’s there.  What do you want to do?”  And that helps them make their own choices.

The other thing is that we believe the survivor.  We don’t question her story about what happened to her.  That’s her experience, and we want to be there for her.  So, if it’s okay with you, I want to give a little plug here for our training program.

Andrea:  Oh, yeah, absolutely.  So, tell us about where people can find information about you and your trainings.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Okay.  I have a website.  It’s called houseofpeacepubs.com, and there are links there to the advocacy training program where someone can find out information about the program.  We start a class about once a month.  We do a class over four weeks.  So, it kind of comes out over every month.  Sometimes, it rolls over into the next month.  But we end about mid-December with our twelve courses so that everyone has the holiday season off, and then we start usually the first full week in January again.

Andrea:  And this is a series of twelve courses, is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Yes, there’s twelve courses.  People can join the course at any time and go through the sequence of twelve courses.  So, we are in our second year now.  And we are close to having 200 people who have taken one or more of our courses.

Andrea:  That’s great!

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  So, another thing to look at on my website if people want to know more about coercive control and the impacts of coercive control and how to work with that in the family court system, I have a book that I’ve written that can be found on the products link on that website.  It’s called Eyes Wide Open: Help! with Control Freak Co-Parents.  And it explains all the different types of coercive control that I’ve identified through the research, through talking with survivors and through working with survivors.  So, you know, people are welcome to go and check that out and see if they have questions.  They can contact me through info@houseofpeacepubs.com if they have any questions, they want to know more.

Andrea:  That sounds great.  Debra, we’ll make sure to include links to everything you mentioned in our show notes on our website, too, so that would make it easy for people to come and find at voiceofinfluence.net.

Debra, thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise with us here and your passion to see things change.  I hope that in the midst of all the unrest that we’re all experiencing kind of right now that perhaps some good will come of this for race relations but also for just this issue of coercive control in general, and specifically also for people who are experiencing it in the court systems and in their families.  So, thank you for all the work that you’re doing and for being a Voice of Influence our audience today.

Dr. Debra Wingfield:  Oh, you’re welcome, Andrea, and thank you for having me on your show!